Pedigree

NG You have started an excellent and controversial subject. There is a lot of pride at stake in opinion differences of people here because there are quite a few varied backgrounds, and all of them believe they are right.

The value of choosing a pup from a popular breed in a litter of talent PROVEN pedigree within the FIRST 3 generations is this:
Amongst the very best breedings, your chances of greatness in puppies is good, but not great. Duds in even the best most expensive litters, regarding both physical and intellectual capacities. but most of the litter should have enough qualities to make the hunters happy.
As that pedigree gets weaker so to do the inherited qualities that helped those great dogs become great. (Health & brains)
I have seen dogs with no credible pedigree become fantastic hunters and pets. But I have seen more of them that I would not want in my home.
Every breeder says their dogs are the right ones. I have never needed to check out the kennel of a breeder I am considering. I know them by reputation. Thats a problem for the uninitiated. And if I don't know of them, then I likely don't want to. Anyone can breed dogs.
Get to know pedigrees, and the good breeders will become obvious.
James Lamb Free wrote some of the most ancient advice on picking breeds and puppies, that still holds true today.
It's basic and good

Excellent post Scott,

Thank you Labber. I have just had a quick look at it on-line .... it looks great. I will pick up a copy today.

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Originally Posted by Labber

NG You have started an excellent and controversial subject. There is a lot of pride at stake in opinion differences of people here because there are quite a few varied backgrounds, and all of them believe they are right.

The value of choosing a pup from a popular breed in a litter of talent PROVEN pedigree within the FIRST 3 generations is this:
Amongst the very best breedings, your chances of greatness in puppies is good, but not great. Duds in even the best most expensive litters, regarding both physical and intellectual capacities. but most of the litter should have enough qualities to make the hunters happy.
As that pedigree gets weaker so to do the inherited qualities that helped those great dogs become great. (Health & brains)
I have seen dogs with no credible pedigree become fantastic hunters and pets. But I have seen more of them that I would not want in my home.
Every breeder says their dogs are the right ones. I have never needed to check out the kennel of a breeder I am considering. I know them by reputation. Thats a problem for the uninitiated. And if I don't know of them, then I likely don't want to. Anyone can breed dogs.
Get to know pedigrees, and the good breeders will become obvious.
James Lamb Free wrote some of the most ancient advice on picking breeds and puppies, that still holds true today.
It's basic and good

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Excellent post Labber and I agree will all of it and followed almost exactly the same recipe when i was breeding and racing sled dogs (20yrs). I think many working dog breeders come to this same recipe conclusion connecting with the right people over the years. The ones that don't usually get out of the game by year five and can cause allot of damage to the breed they were involved with.

Two thumbs up ! :)

Scott, I would second this view as to the role of pedigree in selecting a new pup. When the pedigree is loaded your chances are good but we all know not as good as we like but certainly the first step in our search.

If one is really a student of the game then you'll begin to examine the inherent qualities of those individuals. You and I ay have been around long enough to have seen these dogs when they were competing thus we have even more information to go on and again try to make a prediction of how a certain cross will go.....still no gurantee but way down the road.

We can also look at what previous litters were like....size, confirmation, marking, trainability etc. We can look to see if sires were prepotent throwing a very predictable 'get' or whether things were all over the map. How about the dams?

Another major step is get out and see some of the dogs in action, in competition even better if you can, see just what some of these animals are capable of. For those who are unaware, at every Retriever trials there is a catalogue listing the dogs by stats and sire/dam and breeder...lots of good information.

So the pedigree is where it starts but good students will continue on. I really like your line......" And if I don't know of them, then I likely don't want to."

One thing that may come as a surprise to some, is that a puppy that has a dam who has done well in All-age competition, or accumulated a lot of points in a short time in advanced hunt tests, and has a sire that is titled as a field trial / amateur field trial champion or is highly titled in the hunt test games, and has a track record of producing good pups, will often be no more expensive than puppies from unproven stock.
If ever there was a value in doing your homework, this is it.
Most new buyers (myself included) cannot appreciate the great differences in working titles that exist when they first start out. It helps to take the advice of people with experience. Forums like this did not exist when I started out 25 yrs ago.
Knowing the sires & dams through their track record first, and then word of mouth is a better way to go as opposed to watching them retrieve a few bumpers in a breeders back yard.

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Originally Posted by NorthernGrouse

Thank you Labber. I have just had a quick look at it on-line .... it looks great. I will pick up a copy today.

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Training your Retriever is a great read. The training advice in it is very old and outdated. Much of the general training philosophy still holds true today, but it has been advanced through much more practical and humane methods.

Obviously, your post is about pedigree and it’s good advice indeed.
However, there is one thing that I cannot resist to add: It’s one thing what puppy you buy, but it’s another what you make out of it!
Many hunting dog buyers will consider breed and pedigree. Perhaps, you can dispute if they made the right choice.
However, what is unfortunately not so apparent to some, is that by buying good pedigree alone they don’t get some low maintenance plug and play tool – afterall, it’s a dog that requires appropriate and continuous training.
So,it's always hard to compare apples and oranges. Not neglecting pedigree, but I personally think training is by far the bigger variable that makes dogs turn out differently.

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Originally Posted by Waftrudnir

Obviously, your post is about pedigree and it’s good advice indeed.
However, there is one thing that I cannot resist to add: It’s one thing what puppy you buy, but it’s another what you make out of it!
Many hunting dog buyers will consider breed and pedigree. Perhaps, you can dispute if they made the right choice.
However, what is unfortunately not so apparent to some, is that by buying good pedigree alone they don’t get some low maintenance plug and play tool – afterall, it’s a dog that requires appropriate and continuous training.
So,it's always hard to compare apples and oranges. Not neglecting pedigree, but I personally think training is by far the bigger variable that makes dogs turn out differently.

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I don't think they can be separated.

Great pedigree ( meaning generations of proven hunting dogs) + poor training = not good usually

poor pedigree ( meaning no history of parents wanting to hunt) + excellent trainer = not good usually

*There's always the exception .

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Originally Posted by Sharon

I don't think they can be separated.

Great pedigree ( meaning generations of proven hunting dogs) + poor training = not good usually

poor pedigree ( meaning no history of parents wanting to hunt) + excellent trainer = not good usually

*There's always the exception .

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If you would have said "history of parents prooven not wanting to hunt", I'm in full agreement. LOL