Unknown champions

With pointing dogs you need the raw material to start with, a good dog, and you need to be a good trainer to be successful. At the same time I know dogs that win in spite of their handlers and handlers that win in spite of their dogs. A good trainer can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I believe the dog and his natural ability is more important. You can't create a good grouse dog if that dog doesn't have the natural ability to start with. Not all bird dogs can be great grouse dogs.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Who said that e-collars produced hard headed dogs? Where is that on this thread?

You keep trying to put words in my mouth.

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Welsh I never said you said that. In general though people tend to think the ecollar has produced hard headed dogs. I'm interested as jakezilla says something contrary to many people's beliefs.

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Originally Posted by terrym

Question for JZ and Kraka. You are both very serious about trialing yet have very different venues. In your opinion would you say skill of trainer is more important than breeding? I used to trial when I was into beagles but have only done hunt tests and a gundog/ fun class at Hullett with my Britt. My limited experience is that the dog world is heavy to retired people with lots of free time. So, my opinion is the trainers should weigh heavier on the scales than pedigree. Don't get me wrong I definitely believe in looking for proven/titled bloodlines.

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A very good observation and subsequent question for sure.

I would say that to be successful one requires both...solid pedigrees and sound pedagogy of training. Not all people are good candidates to be trainers. Many never learn the observation, the timing, the nuances of reading your dog. Some think they train when all they're doing is exposing their dog to certain skills, never getting them to a high standard to be consistent. Some test too much. Some have no notion about breaking skills down to sub skills and subsequent ordering of teaching to reach end skills.


Our sport has become weighted with retired folks who have the time and interest to pursue this game. Many are the young people I started out with when we were so young. We got involved because we wanted great gun dogs and lead us down the path to field trials

Before there were Hunt tests ...there were just field trials. All the others(WC,WCX etc) came about later for various reasons. There were some who didn't find competition to their liking, there were some who pursued a scenario more closely representing a days hunt and there were show/obedience folk who wanted some level of field recognition on their dogs.

I think we're in a good place now where there is something for almost everyone. Not everyone can field trial, some are very serious hunters and recognize the skills that they require in their dogs and as such are interested in how to train their dogs. There is no doubt though, the testing ground that reveals the true talents of our superior dogs lies with field trials. Those inherent skills are often tested to the limit.

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

There is no doubt though, the testing ground that reveals the true talents of our superior dogs lies with field trials. Those inherent skills are often tested to the limit.

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I get that. You can have 5 FDX titled dogs who meet the mark but that really doesn't tell you which of the 5 is the best dog or choice for a breeding program. I have a new ES coming in January and plan on doing Hunt tests with her. Venues are usually plentiful and reasonable drives. I just don't have the time to follow a trial circuit for pointing dogs.

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Originally Posted by Jakezilla

The e-collar and training methods associated with them have made it so that he public can train their dogs to very high levels that were only achievable by pros and gifted amateurs in the past. This is a good thing for the sport but it also makes these same people believe that their dogs are better than they acutally are and these weak dogs get bred and produce weak dogs. The real high end dogs that better the breed aren't for the average guy and are usually too much dog for them. When these high end dogs are bred, if you are lucky, you will end up with one or two champion calbire dog and the rest will be hunting dogs. The kennels that breed "Gentlemen's Hunting Dogs" aren't doing their breed any favors and weaken their breed.


Also when I say there are non-titled dogs I would take a pup out of these are all trial dogs that I have seen compete repeatedly and have all the tools to be a champion they just haven't got the nod yet. Even if I was looking for a hunting dog I would still go to trial stock and competing dogs.

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That's funny ,Gentlemen's Hunting Dog's. Check out Old Oak Retrievers, British Master Hunter hunting dogs. Call them what you want but they come of excellent proven breeding programs out of many years of careful selection including all health clearances.. I have one of these labs and I am more than happy with her performance as a hunting and family pet. In fact I have more imports coming in the new year.

I deal with pointing dogs, you are talking about a retriever. I'll let Kraka field this one.

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Originally Posted by Jakezilla

I deal with pointing dogs, you are talking about a retriever. I'll let Kraka field this one.

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LOL whatever.Then leave out the Gentlemen's hunting dog comment because in the past it has insinuated the British Lab.

Judging from the content of many of the posts here, it seems that most of you guys work with your dogs, both during and off season. That’s of course how it should be and you should be commended.

But I’ve seen too many dogs who ability is about as thin as the pedigree paper backing them. That's because after the cash that was initially laid out to buy the dog and for a professional trainer to get it started, the owner has done little else other than take the dog and his Caesar Guerini out a couple of weekends each October. Great foundation, never been built on.

I guess that’s what frustrates me, along with the nauseating bragging about their dog’s legendary lineage and superb skill. The GTA seems to have lots of these crated wonder dogs.

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

That's funny. Check out Old Oak Retrievers, British Master Hunter hunting dogs. Call them what you want but they come of excellent proven breeding programs out of many years of careful selection including all health clearances.. I have one of these labs and I am more than happy with her performance as a hunting and family pet. In fact I have more imports coming in the new year.

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Have to ask the question....'What's funny?'

I checked their kennel out, looks like a very dedicated breeder but....I see no evidence that he competes on our continent with his dogs unless you refer to some of his females who have a JH or SH behind their name.

We had a good discussion going about training vs pedigree etc, now you bring the British 'experience' into it. We know that there are almost 0 British bred dogs competing on our circuit. We've been around this loop before and I choose not to dialogue anymore about that.

The fact you are happy with your dog and she is performing for you is absolutely great. It is always good news to hear the things about our dogs and how owners/handlers are happy but if you want to convince me about how great the dogs with British pedigrees are then tell me where and when I can expect to see some(one) competing at a field trial.....I'd like to be there.

By the way... Merry Christmas to you guys, there have been some good discussions!

Excellent thread.
Some of the comments made in this thread are brand new thoughts to me. To be able to make some of the generalizations stated one would have to have MANY years of breeding and training to substantiate that view.

I certainly don't believe that the "e collar has made for more hard headed dogs"....simply a training tool like a check cord.