Shooting a coyote while wild turkey hunting

I didn't mean to insult anyone, if you think that my comment was meant as an insult towards you, "I apologize".
What I said was that as people age and mature , their attitude towards life and what goes with it, changes a lot.

I have been hunting coyotes for close to 40 years now , I am 73 and have shot more coyotes during this time than most have or will ever see, [have many albums of pictures as proof] our hides were / are not wasted , they were prepared [ lots of work] and sent to North Bay Fur Auctions except for the ones that had mange.
Our group always quit hunting coyotes after the breeding season as we did not want to starve to death the young pups by killing the nursing females , and also because the hides by that time were poor. we had one guy that wanted to carry on and hunt them much later than we did , he left our group and started his own , that really fell through on him as his own group felt the same as we did, he finally quit hunting coyotes and sold his dogs.

Over the years we have met many farmers /land owners that did not want coyotes killed, these are Orchardists that prefer to have coyotes around to kill mice that girdle young trees , and to keep away deer that also damage the fruit trees by eating the young buds. Tree Farmers [ Christmas Tree] are also happy to have coyotes around as mice also kill their young trees by girdling them , you can also add Nurseries to this group. There is one farmer that has 6 farms , grows soft crops and berries he also says coyotes are his pest controllers, another farmer who has a few ponds that are used for crop irrigation prefers to have coyotes around to keep the geese away as the goose crap plugs up his irrigation pumps , the coyotes also get rid of some muskrats that cause shoreline damage around his ponds. Another guy has ponds that he raises trout in , he claims that the coyotes keep away the Great Blue Herons that kill his fish, keep the geese away and control the muskrat population which cause problems with water levels in his ponds.

So you can see that not everyone wants coyotes killed off , some don't even mind that they kill a few deer as the deer cause more damage for them than the coyotes do.
To these farmers they do serve a purpose and save them $ dollars $ in crop damage and to look at them as something that kills some deer and takes away from "your sport " is just being one sided .

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Originally Posted by jaycee

I didn't mean to insult anyone, if you think that my comment was meant as an insult towards you, "I apologize".
What I said was that as people age and mature , their attitude towards life and what goes with it, changes a lot.

I have been hunting coyotes for close to 40 years now , I am 73 and have shot more coyotes during this time than most have or will ever see, [have many albums of pictures as proof] our hides were / are not wasted , they were prepared [ lots of work] and sent to North Bay Fur Auctions except for the ones that had mange.
Our group always quit hunting coyotes after the breeding season as we did not want to starve to death the young pups by killing the nursing females , and also because the hides by that time were poor. we had one guy that wanted to carry on and hunt them much later than we did , he left our group and started his own , that really fell through on him as his own group felt the same as we did, he finally quit hunting coyotes and sold his dogs.

Over the years we have met many farmers /land owners that did not want coyotes killed, these are Orchardists that prefer to have coyotes around to kill mice that girdle young trees , and to keep away deer that also damage the fruit trees by eating the young buds. Tree Farmers [ Christmas Tree] are also happy to have coyotes around as mice also kill their young trees by girdling them , you can also add Nurseries to this group. There is one farmer that has 6 farms , grows soft crops and berries he also says coyotes are his pest controllers, another farmer who has a few ponds that are used for crop irrigation prefers to have coyotes around to keep the geese away as the goose crap plugs up his irrigation pumps , the coyotes also get rid of some muskrats that cause shoreline damage around his ponds. Another guy has ponds that he raises trout in , he claims that the coyotes keep away the Great Blue Herons that kill his fish, keep the geese away and control the muskrat population which cause problems with water levels in his ponds.

So you can see that not everyone wants coyotes killed off , some don't even mind that they kill a few deer as the deer cause more damage for them than the coyotes do.
To these farmers they do serve a purpose and save them $ dollars $ in crop damage and to look at them as something that kills some deer and takes away from "your sport " is just being one sided .

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jaycee
You have made some excellent points. As such I think it has turned a page. Let me explain. In your situation you have explained your rationale to cease hunting after mating season and have made some good points about when it may be desirable to have a healthy coyote population in an area (despite the impact on deer).
There have also been posts (I made several) that point to farmers that have livestock where predation is a real concern to them. In these areas where there is a negative impact to livestock there is likely a general consensus from the farming community that any coyote at any time of the year is a bad thing.
Then there is a third scenario where the areas is remote from farms where there is really no impact from the coyote population. It is my observation that this last one is where the controversy is being generated and not properly separated from the rest.

IMO the discussion of whether or not taking a coyote after the mating season (i.e. during turkey season) is less a question of ethics and more a question of the scenario.
I think most hunters, being the conservation minded types we are, would agree that given no other influences it is the logical and ethical choice to leave the coyotes until the Fall season. Like all groups there is the 98% majority and the 2% fringe that never get it. I think we all realize the 2% are responsible for 98% of the illegal and/or questionable acts. We also realize it is on all of us to speak up when they are going in the wrong direction. Allowing animals to suffer is not what hunting is about irrespective of the hunting scenario. I think it is a more clear scenario if it is called what it is, taking coyote thru the late spring and summer months is 'pest control' and IMO should be engaged only when there is a need. At this point the discussion comes to, yup, it is sad that there is potential for pups to starve but they are not otherwise being fed on livestock.

As a trapper, I get to hear from the farmers when livestock predation becomes an issue. Usually 90% of the time the farmer has dumped deadstock down in the back forty swamp. You can't blame the farmer, as the new deadstock laws make it financially prohibitive to pay to have the dead carcasses dragged off. Feed them well on beef and mutton, and it's pretty easy to see how a family group of coyotes that are fed deadstock will logically start taking the live stuff too. My experience has been that these individual family groups and/or "educated" breeding adults are the coyotes that are causing all of the problems. These are the ones that should be specifically targetted for removal, and the farmer needs to learn that the deadstock buffet needs to be halted.
It's tough to deal with these animals if you are a trapper who gets the call, and you live in an area that prohibits the use of suspended land snares. This is about the only effective way to remove animals during the summer months (from my experience) , when food supply is diverse and abundant. Trying to get a summer coyote to stick it's foot into a dirthole set in the summertime is not an easy thing (at least not from my experience). The food drive/curiosity combo simply is not there. Snaring is easy.
The Min of Ag has recently done a passive cable restraint trial in eastern Ontario, and I for one am very eagar to see this system get adopted. It would put an effective tool into the hands of a trapper who is getting these predation calls. The cable restraint works just like a standard neck snare, but the snare loop does not have a one-way snare lock that chokes down the animal. The animal is caught, and held by the neck, until the trapper arrives to dispatch the animal. It can be very selective, if set properly by someone who's been trained to use the equipment. You can add break-away ferrules and s-hooks to the cables, to release any non-target catch (eg. deer, horses, cattle, etc). Non-targets like dogs and fox can be safely released, unharmed. I'd like to see a special permit be offered for trappers - eg. attend a special training worshop to be trained on the equipment, then be certified to allow use of the equipment to deal with problem coyotes. If anyone in interested in more info, just Google passive cable restraint, and you'll be able to pull up entire worlshop manuals from the US, where this equipment is commonly used. Looks like i got off topic again..........damn!

So its the farmers fault the coyotes sneak into the paddock and kill calves? Glad you cleared that up. How does that play when you are asking permission to trap their land?

Coyotes are opportunistic feeders. What could possibly be easier or better nutrition than penned livestock.

BTW - Passive restraint system = easy held meal for mr yote!

Don't get me wrong, I support trapping. I do find it difficult to understand how you claim moral sadness for orphaned pups but allow an adult coyote or other animal languish in your leg traps for any period of time....

How many incidentals are killed in your traps? How many animals don't die right away?

You have a legal right to trap as hunters have a legal right to shoot coyotes.

I also find it surprising when I hear of local farmers who get billed by trappers $75 a trapped beaver and the trapper doesn't even finish the job but does somehow manage to collect his fee....

Lets come off of our collective high horse.

We have reasons for shooting the coyotes or not shooting them. Its a very polarized topic and I understand your side but forgive me if I side with farmers each and every time. They are the ones after all that put food on my table.

Sorry Jack, no horses for this fellow, unless they're pulling logs out of the bush! Yes, deadstock put into the bush is the number one contributing factor on any of the nusiance predation calls I've had, so to answer your question, if it's the farmer whose running the loader, made the decision to dump on his land, then yes, the farmer is the one who's directly contributing to his own problem. Sting as it may, it's the honest truth. Opportunism is indeed indirectly the main reason that the calf gets grabbed in the barn paddock. The coyote isn't stupid, and being the opportunist that he is, will gladly partake of the 1000lb prolapsed cow that you dumped into the swamp. So will his wife, who will now implant and have a really big litter of pups, due to her excellent condition factor. All those pups will survive as the well fed female keeps lactating and the pups get to eat all that regurgitated deadstock. You now have 10 educated livestock-raised coyotes on your property instead of two (with no deadstock draw, there will be no artificially elevated population) and you're the one who dropped the welcome mat by leaving deadstock in the bush for them to eat. Bury them deep if you can, but this won't work for half the year, when the ground's frozen. As mentioned above, the farmer is stuck in a hard place. Not too long ago you could actually make money off that carcass when the rendering truck came and picked the dead animal up. Those days are gone now. I'm not sure what the cost is now for removal, but it's the reason why everything gets dumped back in the bush. Most farmers I speak to regarding this are not as reactive as you, and they realize that they're merely adding fuel to the fire by continuing to feed the coyotes on their property.
re: cable restraints - they do not kill the animal. They restrain it, until you show up for the dispatch.
re: footholds - since 2007, canada has been a member of the AIHTS (Agreement on International Humane Trapping Standards). Any piece of equipment that is now used must have passed certification testing, and it must meet strict thresholds for kill time (if it's a kill-style trap), or it must ensure welfare of restrained animals if it is a live-holding trap. You should try putting one of the certified traps on your hand sometime (we do this when we teach the trapping course), to mimic what a restrained animal is feeling while held in the equipment. You might be surprised. Gone are the days of toothed jaws, steel-on-steel jaws, chewed feets, etc. As far as languishing in the trap, it's law that you inspect all your live-holding sets every 24 hrs. Most trappers will start checking at dawn, to minimize holding time. Some will argue till the cows come home, that any restraint is stressful and hard on the animal. The answer is yes, but you need to put it in context. What are your feelings about that adult female coyote being "humanely" held by a certified trap for 6 hours in the dark, knowing that this is the animal that's killed nine of your lambs during the past week?
Re: Incidental catch - yes. Any trapper that says they catch no incidentals is a lier. It happens, but you do everything in your power to ensure that this is minimized, by selecting the most appropriate set, using the right trap, and setting and luring it for the intended target animal. All my kill sets are elevated on what are called running poles, to keep my equipment out of dog range. As far as incidentals, I usually catch 3 or 4 feral cats in one trapping season, while running about 30 220's over a 40 night season. I may catch one flying squirrel over the same period. Everything else is a target furbearer.
Re: time to die in the trap - everything you use now, by law, must be a certified trap that has been tested and has passed the certification standards. In order to have passed the certification process, the traps must render the animal unconscious in the specified time that is considered humane dispatch for that species. All my equipment is certified and I ensure it is well maintained (dyed/waxed,striking bars maintained, triggers repaired, springs unloaded during storage).

Regarding the trapper who stiffed the farmer - the farmer needs to go down into his swamp, and cut himself a nice piece of black ash. Something about three feet long, and as big around as your wrist seems to work well. He then needs to go and see this trapper, and have what is best known my way as "a discussion" about the matter. Sorry your friends got shanked. If it was me trapping that property, my terms are always a guarentee that I will rid the problem, or I don't get paid. If I can't catch the beaver, then it's no charge. I then ask the property owner what they want done. Do they want them all removed, or just reduced to a manageable number. If they want a complete removal, then I remain on the site until I've trapped every one of them. Call the MNR and give them the Pecker Trapper's name. They'll pull his name from the district nusiance call list. Let him shoot himself in the foot, and get no more future calls for his services.

Dave

]we have a big problem with farmers dumping dead stock out back, I have seen everything from 1000 turkeys to piles of 30 hogs 100s of piglets and horses . dairy cows you name it ,and it does educate the coyotes .as far as incidental catches I get a old cat most times the first night I set a new location with any trap baited for coon just because there are way to many dam cats roaming the country side ,all are coon traps are set to high to catch dogs or other pets ,also I never leave any animal to suffer in any trap I set .A lot of folks that comment on traps and trappers really have no idea what is going on ,,,so I will leave it at that ,,,,Dutch

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if it's the farmer whose running the loader, made the decision to dump on his land, then yes, the farmer is the one who's directly contributing to his own problem.

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That is exactly what happened around here and why I was able to shot 14 to 16 coyotes every winter for 4 years, it was so bad that a few other farmers complained to the ones doing it, putting out dead chickens , pigs and calves out along their bush lines.
This has since stopped and consequently there are fewer coyotes in the area. And as Fenelon stated , coyotes are opportunists , they will take down a calf or sheep while dinning at the local chicken or beef supply depot, [ Kentucky Fried Chicken or Burger King ] to them.
At one point a lady two concessions from us called me about the coyote problem as the coyotes were coming into her sheep enclosure and go on a killing spree and also chase her cats onto the porch of the house and eat the cat food.
I did help her out when she asked , but she was not really that appreciative, it was just that she lost too many ewes and lambs.
She had been raising sheep for years but had no real big problems till a couple of neighboring farmers started dumping carcass's out along their bush lines drawing coyotes from who knows where into our area.
It also happened in another area we hunted, two kitty corner concessions where we shot 65 coyotes one winter without much traveling.

This thread has produced a lot of information that hopefully will aid others in a better understanding of coyotes and farming practises. Those of us who have hunted them for many years are all to aware of what Fenelon has shared in regard to deadstock and the dilemma that farmers face. Dumping deadstock is one of the foremost reasons of increased predation. I have had to school several sheep farmers who continued to dump at the back of the property. They thought the family group of coyotes continued to target them.....little wonder when you feed them so well.

I'm like Jaycee, probably caught, shot and stretched more coyote hides than others can imagine. Our group as well does not shoot spring coyotes and we would uninvited members who choose to continue.

Thanks Fenelon for taking the amount of time to share.

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Originally Posted by Fenelon

re: cable restraints - they do not kill the animal. They restrain it, until you show up for the dispatch.
re: footholds - since 2007, canada has been a member of the AIHTS (Agreement on International Humane Trapping Standards). Any piece of equipment that is now used must have passed certification testing, and it must meet strict thresholds for kill time (if it's a kill-style trap), or it must ensure welfare of restrained animals if it is a live-holding trap. You should try putting one of the certified traps on your hand sometime (we do this when we teach the trapping course), to mimic what a restrained animal is feeling while held in the equipment. You might be surprised. Gone are the days of toothed jaws, steel-on-steel jaws, chewed feets, etc. As far as languishing in the trap, it's law that you inspect all your live-holding sets every 24 hrs. Most trappers will start checking at dawn, to minimize holding time. Some will argue till the cows come home, that any restraint is stressful and hard on the animal. The answer is yes, but you need to put it in context. What are your feelings about that adult female coyote being "humanely" held by a certified trap for 6 hours in the dark, knowing that this is the animal that's killed nine of your lambs during the past week?
Re: Incidental catch - yes. Any trapper that says they catch no incidentals is a lier. It happens, but you do everything in your power to ensure that this is minimized, by selecting the most appropriate set, using the right trap, and setting and luring it for the intended target animal. All my kill sets are elevated on what are called running poles, to keep my equipment out of dog range. As far as incidentals, I usually catch 3 or 4 feral cats in one trapping season, while running about 30 220's over a 40 night season. I may catch one flying squirrel over the same period. Everything else is a target furbearer.
Re: time to die in the trap - everything you use now, by law, must be a certified trap that has been tested and has passed the certification standards. In order to have passed the certification process, the traps must render the animal unconscious in the specified time that is considered humane dispatch for that species. All my equipment is certified and I ensure it is well maintained (dyed/waxed,striking bars maintained, triggers repaired, springs unloaded during storage).

Regarding the trapper who stiffed the farmer - the farmer needs to go down into his swamp, and cut himself a nice piece of black ash. Something about three feet long, and as big around as your wrist seems to work well. He then needs to go and see this trapper, and have what is best known my way as "a discussion" about the matter. Sorry your friends got shanked. If it was me trapping that property, my terms are always a guarentee that I will rid the problem, or I don't get paid. If I can't catch the beaver, then it's no charge. I then ask the property owner what they want done. Do they want them all removed, or just reduced to a manageable number. If they want a complete removal, then I remain on the site until I've trapped every one of them. Call the MNR and give them the Pecker Trapper's name. They'll pull his name from the district nusiance call list. Let him shoot himself in the foot, and get no more future calls for his services.

Dave

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Ok Dave

Your answers seem like they are aimed at anti's to try and sell them on the humane side of trapping. I have already told you I have no problem with trapping. I understand that process and have been exposed to it my entire life.

BUT

Save the Horse#$*! for someone who has never seen what can happen. An animal will sometimes rip themselves apart trying to get out of a trap and certainly if you claim that every kill traps does exactly that instantly every time then again I call BS. Things happen. You are killing an animal that really doesn't want to be killed.

Likewise if you claim every trapper gets to their traps within that 24 hour period every time again I call BS. Yes that's the law but there are a lot of part time trappers out there and it isn't always their top priority and again things can happen that prevent them from tending their traps.


As for this comment;

"Any piece of equipment that is now used must have passed certification testing, and it must meet strict thresholds for kill time (if it's a kill-style trap), or it must ensure welfare of restrained animals if it is a live-holding trap. You should try putting one of the certified traps on your hand sometime"

Yeah done that. I wasn't trying to get out of it either and I have opposable thumbs so I could.

Great as long as everything goes as it should. Nothing ever goes wrong does it.

No animal ever suffers in any of your traps for too long just for a while as prescribed by accepted standards.

This is nonsense and hypocritical.

You cause more pain and suffering to animals then the guys that shoot a coyote while turkey hunting yet you climb up on your pulpit and say they are morally wrong and are unethical hunters.

That is my problem with your statement.

Like I said I support trappers and their right to take part in that activity. Likewise I would expect trappers to support legal hunting activities.


As far as the fellow with the beaver problem, his issue was resolved and not by a trapper.

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Originally Posted by Fenelon

Regarding the trapper who stiffed the farmer - the farmer needs to go down into his swamp, and cut himself a nice piece of black ash. Something about three feet long, and as big around as your wrist seems to work well. He then needs to go and see this trapper, and have what is best known my way as "a discussion" about the matter. Sorry your friends got shanked. If it was me trapping that property, my terms are always a guarentee that I will rid the problem, or I don't get paid. If I can't catch the beaver, then it's no charge. I then ask the property owner what they want done. Do they want them all removed, or just reduced to a manageable number. If they want a complete removal, then I remain on the site until I've trapped every one of them. Call the MNR and give them the Pecker Trapper's name. They'll pull his name from the district nusiance call list. Let him shoot himself in the foot, and get no more future calls for his services.

Dave

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So,if the fella that hired you to get rid of the beavers and shoot the Coyotes at the same time or forget the whole thing,I'll bet you would walk away from that​ paycheck,wouldn't you?