Unknown champions

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Originally Posted by ninepointer

Judging from the content of many of the posts here, it seems that most of you guys work with your dogs, both during and off season. That’s of course how it should be and you should be commended.

But I’ve seen too many dogs who ability is about as thin as the pedigree paper backing them. That's because after the cash that was initially laid out to buy the dog and for a professional trainer to get it started, the owner has done little else other than take the dog and his Caesar Guerini out a couple of weekends each October. Great foundation, never been built on.

I guess that’s what frustrates me, along with the nauseating bragging about their dog’s legendary lineage and superb skill. The GTA seems to have lots of these crated wonder dogs.

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I don't see any relevance whatsoever between geographical location and the quality of the dogs. Its obviously more practical and less costly to develop a dog if you live in the country than living in the city considering easy access to nearby training grounds and wild birds but putting in the hours and having the required knowledge and skills is imperative if you want to achieve your goal in developing a polished, high caliber performer whether it will be hunted or campaigned in field trials regardless where you live. Living in the city doesn't equate to having inferior dogs any more that living in the country equates to having superior dogs and I don't see how anyone can make such an unfounded statement about the GTA having lots of crated wonder dogs. You either got it or you don't and regardless of all the bragging, the dogs will ultimately speak for themselves.

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

Have to ask the question....'What's funny?'

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I have to say I never saw the answer to this question and I was a bit perplexed at it as well. I think the British/American dog debate has been beat to death. Labs in the UK that trial are judged against different standards and don't have the ability to be competitive in the extreme nature of tests here. Doesn't make them a bad dog just not competitive. What is bad is the notion that these dogs are somehow better than ours. This idea is perpetuated by breeders here looking for a certain niche of people to buy their dogs. I think in most cases these "British" dogs are simply just lines that don't have as much drive as a north American field breeding. For the average weekend warrior that is probably fine. A dog with less drive is easier to control if it's training is lacking. For someone who is not as experienced as a trainer a lower drive dog may make things easier on them. Obviously they have to have enough drive to want to retrieve and hunt but there are certainly varying degrees of that in different lines and different dogs. Krakadawn actually has a dog that I absolutely love - when training or hunting he is a real fire breather and it excites me. While that dog is always control and working with krakadawn I can't help but think that as much as I love watching that animal work with my current experience training that calm, calculated, fast fire-breathing dog would probably have me pulling my hair out if was my dog.

To touch on ecollars - because those standards of UK tests vary greatly from here they can get away without using an ecollar. From what I have seen training with retrievers - the ecollar isn't used because American bred dogs are any less cooperative. The ecollar is used as an effective means of communication at large distances that wouldn't be able to be accomplished between handler and dog without it - as well as to finesse and add precision in training.

I'm still wondering what's funny.

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

LOL whatever.Then leave out the Gentlemen's hunting dog comment because in the past it has insinuated the British Lab.

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Were you asking Jake to leave out the comment? I wasn't sure of what you meant because it was your comment to begin with??????

I see you were asked twice about the comment...' that's funny' but you've not responded to either....wonder why?

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

Were you asking Jake to leave out the comment? I wasn't sure of what you meant because it was your comment to begin with??????

I see you were asked twice about the comment...' that's funny' but you've not responded to either....wonder why?

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Then you need to reads Jake's comment to figure it out and why I replied to it . Then their would be no need for me to answer your comment......that is funny.

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

Then you need to reads Jake's comment to figure it out and why I replied to it . Then their would be no need for me to answer your comment......that is funny.

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Ah.... I see, you edited your posts so I understand now....

"LOL whatever.Then leave out the Gentlemen's hunting dog comment because in the past it has insinuated the British Lab."

Do we not understand both to be the same??

Maybe I'll see you at a field trial......Merry Christmas YD!

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

Ah.... I see, you edited your posts so I understand now....

"LOL whatever.Then leave out the Gentlemen's hunting dog comment because in the past it has insinuated the British Lab."

Do we not understand both to be the same??

Maybe I'll see you at a field trial......Merry Christmas YD!

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Someday I 'll make it out to a field trial. Keeping my focus these days on training and my new arrivals in the new year. One step at a time. Merry Christmas to you as well !

The E-collar. I never thought of that and how you make a not so good dog, good. Interesting.

Are E-collars allowed to be used during field trials and competitions?

I guess that might be a question to ask breeders, was the parents of a litter trained and controlled by e-collars. If so does this compromise the actual pedigree of that line of dogs?
I understand the there are different levels of use for the e-collar from stimulation correction and then there's lighting them up to comply.
Yes there are benefits of using the collar for safety when out in the woods for sure, but for controlling


Huummmmmmmmmm I have to think about this now before I comment further.

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Originally Posted by Big Gunner

The E-collar. I never thought of that and how you make a not so good dog, good. Interesting.

Are E-collars allowed to be used during field trials and competitions?

I guess that might be a question to ask breeders, was the parents of a litter trained and controlled by e-collars. If so does this compromise the actual pedigree of that line of dogs?
I understand the there are different levels of use for the e-collar from stimulation correction and then there's lighting them up to comply.
Yes there are benefits of using the collar for safety when out in the woods for sure, but for controlling


Huummmmmmmmmm I have to think about this now before I comment further.

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E collars are not allowed in any level of competition.

Would an e collar compromise a pedigree? Absolutely not. No more than an effective trainer vs an ineffective trainer. The pedigree remains the same, what is observable for sure is the performance and results.

"lighting them up to comply' is a very poor choice indeed. Proper collar conditioning does not promote that strategy. If you were with most advanced trainers you would hardly notice when the collar was applied especially when used in connection with attrition. There are numerous programs out that assist people in proper conditioning with their dogs. This is absolutely NOT the strap it on and light em up strategy in fact 'cold burns' should be avoided completely. A cold burn is when a handler arbitrarily decides to use the collar with no information conveyed to the dog. That resembles a 'lightening' bolt from the sky with almost no learning established. This is normally referred to as direct pressure.
The other side of the coin would be indirect pressure....for example sit(nick) sit or here(nick) here

In the end, the collar should be like my hand reaching out to reinforce already taught commands.

PS....Great trainers can make mediocre dogs look pretty good.

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

E collars are not allowed in any level of competition.

Would an e collar compromise a pedigree? Absolutely not. No more than an effective trainer vs an ineffective trainer. The pedigree remains the same, what is observable for sure is the performance and results.

"lighting them up to comply' is a very poor choice indeed. Proper collar conditioning does not promote that strategy. If you were with most advanced trainers you would hardly notice when the collar was applied especially when used in connection with attrition. There are numerous programs out that assist people in proper conditioning with their dogs. This is absolutely NOT the strap it on and light em up strategy in fact 'cold burns' should be avoided completely. A cold burn is when a handler arbitrarily decides to use the collar with no information conveyed to the dog. That resembles a 'lightening' bolt from the sky with almost no learning established. This is normally referred to as direct pressure.
The other side of the coin would be indirect pressure....for example sit(nick) sit or here(nick) here

In the end, the collar should be like my hand reaching out to reinforce already taught commands.

PS....Great trainers can make mediocre dogs look pretty good.

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Wow I like this post! It echos words from Retriever Hall of Famer Mike Lardy and sums up the correct method to use an e-collar as effective training aid.

We said Krakadawn.

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Originally Posted by Big Gunner

The E-collar. I never thought of that and how you make a not so good dog, good.

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The converse is also true: you can make a good dog not so good. And while making a not so good dog better takes skill, making a good dog into a not so good dog is something anyone can do....

The collar is a powerful tool but like any powerful tool it can do as much harm as good.