Ontario’s sweeping Moose Project proposal leaves hunters reeling. Have your say now.

QUOTE=270 WBY;877684]

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Originally Posted by Obi-wanShinobi

I hope party hunting will continue. I rather a group of 10 get a tag then groups of 4 getting on

Agreed, BUT if the MNRF is to continue with the "calf" hunt it will be detrimental to the herd unless the party has a "cow plus 1 " which allows said group to harvest a calf if the cow has one(why orphan a calf) Harvest your adult moose then go fishing, shoot birds etc etc
Not to difficult to do!

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Actually the the shooting of the cow is more detrimental to the herd.
The calf's reproductive potential is zero in the first 18 month plus of life.
The cow's is proven and as they age maturing past their fifth year of life their reproductive potential tends to double at times even triple.
The chances of survival of the calf through the first year and half also increases dramatically when protected by it's mother. Another reason to reduce cow mortality rates especially iif population growth is required.

Well to those that think the calf restrictions are going fix the problem well think again.
I also don't believe for minute that the MNR Personnal responsible for its design believe so either.
I say don't be surprized to see even further drastic Adult tag reductions again this year as well .

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Party hunting results in nearly every adult tag being filled.
With the high success rate, the MNR allocates less tags (as they should).
So there are more 'hunting opportunities' but they are lower quality.
Again, there's a good reason party hunting for moose is a rarity in the rest of the world - yet the MNR here in Ontario hangs on to it.
It is not a good game management strategy. It's geared entirely towards selling tags, not quality hunting opportunities.

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B-I-N-G-O! "Geared toward selling tags" is dead on target. That's all this system has been about,from the get-go. If a hunter wants to stay in Pool 1 and remain in the draw,he/she must buy a tag which leaves the entire system open to manipulation and fraud. This is where guys get wives/girlfriends,their kids and older family members who will likely never hunt, to buy tags simply to scam the system and stay in the "preferred"status. The entire system has been completely corrupted. It'ss time to tear it down and start from scratch.

One would think by the way group hunting is being portrayed the tag fill rate is almost 100% when groups are involved.
Well heres a flash bulletin Ontario Adult Moose Tag Fill Rates most years translates onto on average a less than a 15% population harvest rate at best.




Less than 10% = usually results in population growth
10 to 12% = stable population
above 12% = population decline should be expect


Example for those interested.

WMU 48 harvest rate is set at 3%. for Licenced hunters.
The number of tags that have been made available annually since 2004 have been set to maintain that level on average.

WMU 48 Tag Allocation
2014
Gun Hunt
Bull Tags: 33. Cow Tags: 10. Calf Tags 29
Archery Tags
Bull Tags : 49 CowcTags : 27. Calf Tags : 18

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Originally Posted by chameleon

QUOTE=270 WBY;877684]


Actually the the shooting of the cow is more detrimental to the herd.
The calf's reproductive potential is zero in the first 18 month plus of life.
The cow's is proven and as they age maturing past their fifth year of life their reproductive potential tends to double at times even triple.
The chances of survival of the calf through the first year and half also increases dramatically when protected by it's mother. Another reason to reduce cow mortality rates especially iif population growth is required.

Well to those that think the calf restrictions are going fix the problem well think again.
I also don't believe for minute that the MNR Personnal responsible for its design believe so either.
I say don't be surprized to see even further drastic Adult tag reductions again this year as well .

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You are right with the further tag cuts this year. Apparently the Minister was at a meeting in Fort Francis last fall, regarding wood allocations. As a result of a question about the moose licences, he indicated " if you think it was hard to get a tag this year, wait until next year."

Adult Tag reduction / control = moose population growth
Calf Hunting Restrictions translate in reduced hunter particaption rate.

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

You are right with the further tag cuts this year. Apparently the Minister was at a meeting in Fort Francis last fall, regarding wood allocations. As a result of a question about the moose licences, he indicated " if you think it was hard to get a tag this year, wait until next year."

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Finally the hay days of unsustainable excess adult tag allocations may finally be over.
Now that is something I can support.
Unfortunately the result of the decades of MNR mis-managed excessive adult tag allocation my also now be used as an opportunity / rational for the MNR to dramatically restriction hunter access as well.
If the calf hunting restrictions approach is to be new norm then I say it is time to do away with group adult tag allocation as well.
The moose tag allocation lottery should be made into a straightforward individual selection process. Equal chance for everyone who wishes to apply. Then let the tag holder determine whom they wish to hunt with.

Or

If the (6 million dollar revenue driven) Group Favoured Lottery System is to be maintained as is.

I suggest that a NEW Hunting Season Model along with NEW Tag category be adopted.

"Calf Conservation Tag"

Restricted to ( A ) Pool First Choice Selection Only ( Individual / Group option)
( Restricted Use - WMU Specific issue)
100 % success tag allocation

I am certain Moose Hunting Harvest Rate Modeling will demonstrate :


Benefits:


Reduced Harvest Rate of all age classes.
Will distribute Hunter Participation more evenly across the whole hunting season.
Reduce Hunter Conflict.
Maximize Hunter Participation.
Reduce Draw System demands on Adult Tag Allocation.
Creates a Progresses Hunting pressure rate allowing for a gradual moose survival behaviour adaption timeline to occur.


I suggest that a THREE SEASONS Hunting Model be adopted as I have presented below which will also give anyone wishing to hunt moose a means to do so.
It was also creates a favourable gradually moose survival behaviour adaption timeline as the hunting season progresses in favour Cow/ Calf survival adaption.

First Season (duration 5 to 7 days)

ARCHERY Hunting ONLY

Archery Weapons ONLY

Limited Number of In-mature Bull Tags
Unlimited Archery Calf Hunting ( supported by the well established historical 0.18 success rate)

ARCHERY Calf Hunting Open to all those that entered the A / B Moose Tag Lottery
Also to include hunting opportunity to those that missed the lottery application cut off date.
"You snooze you loose"

Second Season (5 to 7 day duration)

Conservation Calf Tag Holders Hunting Only

Gun / Archery Weapons Permitted
Hunting restricted to ( Individual / Groups ) Conservation Tag Holders Only

Third Season (duration 7 to 28 days)

Adult Tag Holders Only

(Adjustable Adult Tag Numbers in conjunction with an Adjustable Season Length depended on changing WMU population objectives)

Gun / Archery Weapons

Hunting RESTRICTED to ( Individual / Group Adult Tag Holders) ONLY
(Group Members / Size Restricted to declaration at time Draw System Entry)

Conservation (designated ) Tag Holders - Participation Not Permitted
Limited Archery In-Mature Bull Tag Holders - Participation Not Permitted

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Originally Posted by chameleon

One would think by the way group hunting is being portrayed the tag fill rate is almost 100% when groups are involved.
Well heres a flash bulletin Ontario Adult Moose Tag Fill Rates most years translates onto on average a less than a 15% population harvest rate at best.




Less than 10% = usually results in population growth
10 to 12% = stable population
above 12% = population decline should be expect


Example for those interested.

WMU 48 harvest rate is set at 3%. for Licenced hunters.
The number of tags that have been made available annually since 2004 have been set to maintain that level on average.

WMU 48 Tag Allocation
2014
Gun Hunt
Bull Tags: 33. Cow Tags: 10. Calf Tags 29
Archery Tags
Bull Tags : 49 CowcTags : 27. Calf Tags : 18

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There are two major FN hunts in zone 48 and west of zone 48 in Alonquin Park. Would you have the data for those hunts? Number of tags? Success of hunts? ................EXACTLY! Nobody knows so the data is totally incomplete.

Pretty hard to manage a WMU when you're missing half (or more) of the data needed.

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Originally Posted by DanO

There are two major FN hunts in zone 48 and west of zone 48 in Alonquin Park. Would you have the data for those hunts? Number of tags? Success of hunts? ................EXACTLY! Nobody knows so the data is totally incomplete.

Pretty hard to manage a WMU when you're missing half (or more) of the data needed.

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The data you speak of is actually available online for all to see.
Plus the MNR in the Pembroke Area works hand in hand with implementation.
The last I heard in fact I believe the MNR and the Algonquins of Pikwakanagan associated with the websites I have listed below have offices located next to each other in Pembroke.


Hope this helps clear up some of your concerns about half the data missing.

http://www.bafn.ca/harvesting.html


http://www.algonquinsofpikwakanagan....821%20copy.pdf


But you also have to realize is that the recent Supreme Court Rulings have made it quite clear that the Native Sustainable Hunt is a non-negotiable right which the MNR has little to no control over. Furthermore the MNR’s Political Whips / Masters have surely made it quite clear to MNR Staff that they are not to openly discuss the matter in any public forum or consultation so as to not disrupt the two decade / ongoing land claims negotiations.

So as you can see contrary to popular belief / hearsay that at least the Algonquins of Pikwakanagan are in fact taking progressive steps in the right direction by being proactive, making concessions to share the resource when they really don‘t have under legal statue.

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Originally Posted by chameleon

The data you speak of is actually available online for all to see.

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Could you provide a link for it. I haven't been able to find any info on FN hunts in that area.

I see guidelines and information not links to data? I realize the MNR and FN offices are right beside each other and they do cooperate (the MNR has no choice basically) in the hunt. I also realize the FN hunt has priority over the resident Ontario hunt. Back to the harvest data please?