Bill C-231

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikePal

You don't seem to get the nuance...any remaining data from the registry is toxic..legally....no one can ever be found using it or any part of it. It can't be used. It was ordered destroyed by Federal Law and confirmed destroyed by the RCMP.

There are no 'legal' regional or local databases.....if a CFO was found to be using data illegally obtained from the now defunct Registry they would be charged.

No, no.... you just can't get it can you.

1) at the point they are trying to rebuild it the laws will have changed.

2) any relevant data can be pulled from other sources due to the changed laws. Relevant data may have had the original source as the registry but it isn't the registry database anymore.

3) they won't say they are using the registry database, they will nuance it to say they are using existing PAL data, freedom of information requests etc. just like saying a "fee" isn't a "tax" the data accumulated will be coming from X but the fact X got it from the registry will be not spoken. It will be "the CFO database", not the reality that the CFO data came from the registry. In some ways it actually make sense that a provincial CFO would have that list too.... legality... when has that stopped a Liberal (or NDP) politician? Even many of the Conservative ones play it close to or over the line too much.

For example, It has been shown it exists by the RCMP searching houses until they got all the firearms (from radio logs).... how then did they know they got all the firearms. Legault was very upset it seems that her freedom of information requests didn't get filled and desperately wants to preserve any data left.... ??? what were the requests??? were they lists of owners of semi's and their firearms?:confused::confused:

We don't know? We don't know how much and what form the remaining data is in but we can be sure there is some and they already have the design and layout and screens etc. Making people register again... but an improved registry... say for anything not a single shot or double barrel? Who knows what their plans are.... but based on what they have admitted it isn't good for firearm ownership.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mosquito

We don't know? We don't know how much and what form the remaining data is in but we can be sure there is some and they already have the design and layout and screens etc. Making people register again... but an improved registry... say for anything not a single shot or double barrel? Who knows what their plans are.... but based on what they have admitted it isn't good for firearm ownership.

Come on...now your just floundering in the 'Tin Foil Hat' level of reality...LOL...

Quote:

Originally Posted by mosquito

They have the PAL/POL list, we see the RCMP in Alberta knowing they got all the firearms at particular residences during the flood, Quebec and it's proclamation to create its own registry, etc.

There has never been any credible evidence that the RCMP used a copy of the registry in High River -- only wild assumptions and accusations. The Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP looked into how the RCMP chose which houses to go into, etc., and nothing about the registry came to light.

As for Quebec, they can move ahead with their own registry, but they can't use the existing registry data. The courts have ruled on that and upheld the federal government's move to destroy the data under C-19.

The only reason Quebec data is still being retained is because of pending requests for information under FOI predating the earlier Supreme Court decision. Any use of that data would have to follow FOI rules, i.e., all personal identifying data would have to be redacted. So this hardly gets you a registry.

Assuming the matter remains tied up in the courts until after the election, could a future government use the Quebec data? Yes -- if they managed to draft a bill and get it through both houses, retroactively undoing the order to destroy the data, before the courts dealt with the FOI request. That's an unlikely scenario.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mosquito

It would appear that the RCMP probably has a large portion of the data in it's own databases due to requests for information....

Based on what? There is no evidence that the RCMP has any portion of the data in any other database. The only support for this claim is Legault suggesting that they could have this data without anyone knowing.

Privacy laws dictate that any information extracted from the registry for FOI purposes must have the personal identifying information redacted. If the RCMP has this data, they can hardly rebuild a registry from it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mosquito

Given my experience with rebuilding databases....

Given that experience, you would know that logs and extracts will only get you so far. You are making wild assumptions about which data is being kept in logs, and for how long. If a cop were to query the registry through CPIC, the transaction would presumably be logged, but that log might not contain any actual information about the data requested, and might not be retained. Also, logs and so forth would only be able to rebuild those records that had been queried, and we can safely assume that most registry records would not be queried.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mosquito

Yes, we can assume it was, BUT in various databases there will be requests for information, local updates etc. and it will have names, addresses, PAL/POL infor., likely possessed firearms list and descriptions....

Which various databases? Again, wild assumptions being made about what information is being retained, where, and in what form. You seem to be assuming that when an inquiry was made against the registry, some kind of local copy was made of the data returned. But given that the cops had access to query the registry itself, there would be no reason to have a local database. From a data integrity standpoint, you wouldn't want one.

Boy no point arguing with those that have no concept of computer environments, databases and logs.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/index-eng.htm
CFRO is a check that officers can use prior to attending a call, and is currently being accessed more than 14,000 times a day.

No point arguing... you are right I am wrong if it makes you feel better... to think that those requests weren't retained in local databases, in local logs, in transaction lists on local machines etc.... OH I am sure they went through their local database of the requests and their transaction logs and deleted all that data....

after all Legault just seems like the type to get upset at anything and trying to preserve data that doesn't exist is just her way of copping.

and this article is just fiction...
http://globalnews.ca/news/1998184/wa...nload-it-here/

As far as we can make out, this version has less data than Clennett was looking for in his request – he also wanted the serial numbers of the firearms, for example.

The long gun registry, in its complete form, is gone, but the redacted version is the most complete data set about Canadians and their firearms which is ever likely to become public. It’s out of date, but there’s no better alternative.

Lots of insights are buried in the data:

What kinds of guns are most attractive to thieves, relative to the number owned
Roughly how many of a given type of controversialfirearms are owned across the country, and more or less where
As Quebec seeks to establish a provincial long gun registry, how successful it will be. Measuring the provincial registry against the legacy data from the federal registry from Quebec is the most obvious test

Oh.... I made this up too....

Make Model Manufacturer Type Action Class Barrel length Calibre Shots Registration Date Province Postal Code Client Type Stolen Date Lost Date Recovered Date
RUGER 10-22 CARBINE UNKNOWN Rifle Semi-Automatic Non-restricted 22 LONG RIFLE Multi shots 22/09/2002 AB T4 Individual
COOEY 39 UNKNOWN Rifle Bolt Action Non-restricted 22 CALIBRE 1 25/02/2008 ON P7 Individual
WINCHESTER 72 UNKNOWN Rifle Bolt Action Non-restricted 22 Multi shots 20/11/2002 SK S7 Individual
RUGER M77 HAWKEYE STURM RUGER Rifle Bolt Action Non-restricted 610 204 RUGER 5 18/03/2011 ON L0 Individual
SAVAGE MODEL 29B UNKNOWN Rifle Pump Action Non-restricted .22 CAL Multi shots 29/12/2002 SK S4 Individual
MARLIN 36 A MARLIN FIREARMS Rifle Lever Action Non-restricted 508 30-30 WIN 4 29/04/2000 NF A5 Individual
LEE-ENFIELD NO 1 MARK 3* BIRMINGHAM SMALL ARMS (BSA) Rifle Bolt Action Non-restricted 640 303 BRITISH 10 07/12/2009 ON L6 Individual
BAIKAL IJ-18 UNKNOWN Shotgun Hinge Break Non-restricted 12 1 20/02/2002 QC J0 Individual
WINCHESTER RANGER 120 US REPEATING ARMS Shotgun Pump Action Non-restricted 762 12 GA X 3" 4 03/11/2001 QC G0 Individual
RUGER RUGER UNKNOWN Rifle Semi-Automatic Non-restricted 22 CAL Multi shots 08/02/2010 ON M4 Individual
SPECIAL GEWEHR LAVF STAHL SG1 UNKNOWN Shotgun Hinge Break Non-restricted 20 Multi shots 22/12/2001 ON K1 Individual
BROWNING BL-22 MIROKU FIREARMS MANUFACTURING Rifle Lever Action Non-restricted 508 22 LR 15 24/04/2002 AB T0 Individual
STOEGER P350 UNKNOWN Shotgun Pump Action Non-restricted 711 12 GA X 3 1/2" 4 20/07/2006 UN UN Business 01/03/2011
WINCHESTER 1200 WINCHESTER Shotgun Pump Action Non-restricted 762 12 GA X 2 3/4" 4 24/10/2011 MB R5 Individual
LAKEFIELD/MOSSBERG UNKNOWN MOSSBERG Shotgun Bolt Action Non-restricted 715 12 GA X 3" 2 04/02/2002 ON P6 Individual
RANGE UK UNKNOWN Rifle Bolt Action Non-restricted 22-S-L-LR 1 30/12/2002 NS B0 Individual
REMINGTON WOODMASTER 742 UNKNOWN Rifle Semi-Automatic Non-restricted 30-06 Multi shots 26/11/2002 BC V1 Individual
WINCHESTER UNKNOWN UNKNOWN Rifle Lever Action Non-restricted 508 30-30 WIN 30/04/2002 QC J0 Individual
BROWNING BROWNING PATENTS UNKNOWN Shotgun Semi-Automatic Non-restricted 629 7 MM REM MAG 4 09/05/2003 QC J9 Individual
REMINGTON 812 UNKNOWN Shotgun Hinge Break Non-restricted 410 1 17/08/2002 BC V1 Individual
WINCHESTER 1894 WINCHESTER Rifle Lever Action Non-restricted 660 32 WIN SPL 8 21/07/2006 ON K0 Individual
STAR F BONIFACIO ECHEVERRIA Handgun Semi-Automatic Restricted 108 22 LR 8 06/08/2002 ON P8 Individual
PARA-ORDNANCE 14 45 LIMITED PARA-ORDNANCE Handgun Semi-Automatic Restricted 127 45 AUTO 10 09/06/2006 ON M2 Business
THOMPSON/CENTER ENCORE ENDEAVOR THOMPSON/CENTER ARMS Rifle Single Shot Non-restricted 711 50 PERCUSSION 1 04/04/2011 SK S4 Individual
WINCHESTER 94 CHEROKEE COMMEMORATIVE WINCHESTER Rifle Lever Action Non-restricted 508 30-30 WIN 6 01/03/2005 SK S0 Individual
HARRINGTON & RICHARDSON 098 HARRINGTON & RICHARDSON Shotgun Single Shot Non-restricted 700 12 GA X 3" 1 23/05/2002 AB T0 Individual
SAVAGE 94C UNKNOWN Shotgun Hinge Break Non-restricted 12 1 28/06/2002 NF A1 Individual
RUGER MINI-14 STURM RUGER Rifle Semi-Automatic Non-restricted 470 223 REM 5 29/09/2006 AB T2 Individual
WINCHESTER 490 UNKNOWN Rifle Semi-Automatic Non-restricted 22 Multi shots 19/01/2002 ON L0 Individual
MIDLAND 2100 MIDLAND GUN COMPANY Rifle Bolt Action Non-restricted 559 30-06 SPRG 4 24/10/2011 SK S0 Individual
REMINGTON MODEL FOUR UNKNOWN Rifle Semi-Automatic Non-restricted 3006 Multi shots 20/02/2002 QC J8 Individual
BROWNING BPS FIELD MIROKU FIREARMS MANUFACTURING Shotgun Pump Action Non-restricted 711 12 GA X 3" 3 01/11/2010 QC G4 Individual
WINCHESTER 120 UNKNOWN Shotgun Pump Action Non-restricted 750 12 GA 2 04/11/2001 MB R0 Individual
SMITH & WESSON 10 SMITH & WESSON Handgun Revolver Prohibited 102 38 SPL 6 14/11/2002 ON K0 Individual
COOEY 600 UNKNOWN Rifle Semi-Automatic Non-restricted 22 Multi shots 17/11/2001 ON P8 Individual
MOSSBERG 500 FIELD MOSSBERG Shotgun Pump Action Non-restricted 610 410 GA X 3" 3 18/11/2010 QC G7 Individual
REMINGTON 742 WOODSMASTER UNKNOWN Rifle Semi-Automatic Non-restricted 308 Multi shots 14/02/2002 NB E1 Individual
MARLIN 39A UNKNOWN Rifle Lever Action Non-restricted 22 Multi shots 13/02/2002 QC G0 Individual
IVER JOHNSON CHAMPION UNKNOWN Shotgun Hinge Break Non-restricted 24 1 29/04/2003 NS B0 Individual
RUGER NEW MODEL SINGLE SIX UNKNOWN Handgun Revolver Restricted 165 22 24/10/2002 ON N/ Individual
SAVAGE 99F UNKNOWN Rifle Lever Action Non-restricted 308 Multi shots 21/12/2001 ON K4 Individual
BROWNING X-BOLT HUNTER MIROKU FIREARMS MANUFACTURING Rifle Bolt Action Non-restricted 660 7MM REM MAG 3 09/08/2010 QC J0 Individual
COOEY 39 UNKNOWN Rifle Bolt Action Non-restricted 22 1 14/02/2002 ON K9 Individual
CENTAURE 4 FABRIQUES D'ARMES UNIES DE LIEGE Shotgun Multi Barrel Non-restricted 762 12 GA X 2 3/4" 2 12/03/2001 QC H7 Individual
EATONIA UNKNOWN UNKNOWN Rifle Bolt Action Non-restricted 25 1 20/10/2001 NB E3 Individual
REMINGTON 870 EXPRESS UNKNOWN Shotgun Pump Action Non-restricted 12 Multi shots 21/03/2003 QC J0 Individual
MOSSBERG 500A MOSSBERG Shotgun Pump Action Non-restricted 711 12 GA X 3" 4 26/07/2001 QC G3 Business
HOPKINS & ALLEN FOREHAND MODEL 1901 HOPKINS & ALLEN Handgun Revolver Prohibited 76 32 S&W 5 06/07/2009 NS B0 Individual
MOSSBERG 400G UNKNOWN Shotgun Pump Action Non-restricted 12 Multi shots 19/04/2002 SK S0 Individual
RUGER M77 MARK II STURM RUGER Rifle Bolt Action Non-restricted 559 30-06 SPRG 4 12/03/2004 QC G0 Individual
WINCHESTER 12 UNKNOWN Shotgun Pump Action Non-restricted 12 Multi shots 14/11/2002 ON N0 Individual
WINCHESTER 94 UNKNOWN Rifle Lever Action Non-restricted 38-55 WIN Multi shots 01/04/2003 ON N8 Individual
VALTRO TACTICAL 98 VALTRO STOCCHETTA Shotgun Pump Action Non-restricted 356 12 GA X 2 3/4" 5 24/09/2008 BC V9 Individual
BROWNING BROWNING BAR UNKNOWN Rifle Semi-Automatic Non-restricted BAR 30-06 Multi shots 06/02/2009 WI N/ Individual 06/02/2009
BENELLI R1 BENELLI Rifle Semi-Automatic Non-restricted 610 270 WSM 3 17/09/2008 AB T8 Individual
BENELLI SUPER BLACK EAGLE II BENELLI Shotgun Semi-Automatic Non-restricted 711 12 GA X 3 1/2" 3 09/08/2010 ON L7 Individual
MOSSBERG 395 KA UNKNOWN Shotgun Bolt Action Non-restricted 12 Multi shots 08/11/2001 ON N9 Individual
REMINGTON 121 UNKNOWN Rifle Semi-Automatic Non-restricted 22 1 26/11/2001 QC G5 Individual
LAKEFEILD MARK II UNKNOWN Rifle Bolt Action Non-restricted 22 Multi shots 11/12/2001 NS B0 Individual
MARLIN 30AS UNKNOWN Rifle Lever Action Non-restricted 3030 Multi shots 16/02/2002 ON P0 Individual
WINCHESTER CIL 972-C UNKNOWN Rifle Bolt Action Non-restricted .270 Multi shots 24/11/2002 SK S0 Individual
CBC 151 COMPANHIA BRASILEIRA DE CARTUCHOS (CBC) Shotgun Single Shot Non-restricted 762 12 GA X 2 3/4" 1 28/03/2008 QC J1 Individual
CIL CIL MODEL 402 UNKNOWN Shotgun Hinge Break Non-restricted 20 03/05/2002 AB T0 Individual
NORINCO SKS CHINESE STATE ARSENALS Rifle Semi-Automatic Non-restricted 520 7.62X39 RUSSIAN 5 07/10/2011 UN UN Individual
SAVAGE 110 SAVAGE Rifle Bolt Action Non-restricted 559 300 WIN MAG 3 30/09/2011 UN UN Individual
NAMBU TYPE 14 JAPANESE STATE ARSENAL, NAGOYA Handgun Semi-Automatic Restricted 114 8MM NAMBU 8 27/11/2009 UN UN Individual
STOEGER X20 UNKNOWN Rifle Air, spring or gas Non-restricted 420 177 PELLET 1 31/07/2009 ON M4 Individual
MARLIN 925C MARLIN FIREARMS Rifle Bolt Action Non-restricted 559 22 LR 7 08/12/2010 NS B0 Individual
REMINGTON 788 UNKNOWN Rifle Bolt Action Non-restricted 222 1 25/02/2002 ON N0 Individual
JC HIGGINS 20 HIGH STANDARD Shotgun Pump Action Non-restricted 712 12 GA X 2 3/4" 5 26/04/2002 BC V7 Individual
WINCHESTER 120 UNKNOWN Shotgun Pump Action Non-restricted 12 Multi shots 30/10/2001 ON P1 Individual
COOEY 64B UNKNOWN Rifle Semi-Automatic Non-restricted .22 Multi shots 26/12/2002 SK S7 Individual
CARL GUSTAV 96 UNKNOWN Rifle Bolt Action Non-restricted 6.5X55MM. Multi shots 27/12/2002 BC V8 Individual
RUGER 10/22 CARBINE STURM RUGER Rifle Semi-Automatic Non-restricted 470 22 LR 10 07/04/2010 AB T0 Individual
UNKNOWN UNKNOWN UNKNOWN Rifle Bolt Action Non-restricted 30-06 1 08/04/2002 BC V0 Individual
SAVAGE UNKNOWN UNKNOWN Rifle Lever Action Non-restricted 30.30 Multi shots 30/06/2003 SK S4 Individual
WINCHESTER 94 CENTENNIAL 66 RIFLE WINCHESTER Rifle Lever Action Non-restricted 660 30-30 WIN 8 29/10/2009 SK S0 Individual
ITHACA MAG 10 ITHACA Shotgun Semi-Automatic Non-restricted 660 10 GA X 3 1/2" 3 03/04/2009 ON N0 Individual
BAIKAL IJ-18 UNKNOWN Shotgun Single Shot Non-restricted 686 20 GA 1 16/11/2001 QC J9 Individual
WINCHESTER MODEL 190 UNKNOWN Rifle Semi-Automatic Non-restricted 22 CALIBRE Multi shots 13/12/2002 ON L0 Individual

"It’s a very large .txt file of about eight million lines, about 141 MB zipped, and 876 MB unzipped."

Hmmmm.... I wonder if there is a version with more data.... nah..... your right... none of it exists anymore....... transaction logs and databases at local sited and server logs well they rarely contain the actual transaction and when they do... they are a pain to parse...those 14K requests a day... well they wouldn't include requests from CFO's to look at bigger numbers and types etc. Only individuals related to a police call and not requests for info. like transfers in my area etc. .... if that makes you feel better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikePal

Yes I have trust in the Parliamentary system and the Law of our land. A Royal Commission has in the past and will always be available to hold the RCMP accountable.

I should hope I do; I spent 25 yrs wearing a Uniform, willing to give my life to defend that trust.

And I have no doubt you served honorably as do most constables. Having said that , the RCMP has been exposed as being a rogue and secretive outfit that operates under it's own set of rules.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...Mounted_Police

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_...es_of_the_RCMP

Quote:

Originally Posted by mosquito

and this article is just fiction...
http://globalnews.ca/news/1998184/wa...nload-it-here/

Useless, dated, meaningless data....

I think the majority of the comments in your link says it all...

Quote:

Originally Posted by terrym

Having said that , the RCMP has been exposed as being a rogue and secretive outfit that operates under it's own set of rules.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...Mounted_Police

And they have been held accountable..

Quote:

Originally Posted by mosquito

Boy no point arguing with those that have no concept of computer environments, databases and logs.

I work for a major software company. I'll wager you don't go a day in your life without encountering something that's been managed by our software. I work with complex databases every day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mosquito

No point arguing... you are right I am wrong if it makes you feel better... to think that those requests weren't retained in local databases, in local logs, in transaction lists on local machines etc....

A request against CFRO (the registry itself) will return data, but that data will not necessarily be stored in any log or retained in any local database.

Competently designed systems don't store redundant data, particularly where the data is sensitive. Logs will typically only tell you that a transaction was passed, with a key identifier for the transaction; they won't give you the data that was transmitted. And there is no reason to store data in a local database when you make an inquiry -- all you achieve by making a local copy is to give yourself a data integrity problem.

Even if you are storing that data somewhere, all you get by rebuilding your database is the records involved in those queries.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mosquito

OH I am sure they went through their local database of the requests....

What local database, specifically? How do you know local police forces kept databases of CFRO queries? Why would they build such a thing? What benefit would it provide to justify the cost? They would never inquire against that database, for data integrity reasons. They'd only want to go to CFRO. So why keep it?

There's no operational need for such a database. Yet you insist that it exists. This is tinfoil hat stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mosquito

after all Legault just seems like the type to get upset at anything and trying to preserve data that doesn't exist is just her way of copping.

Legault is doing her job, as Information Commissioner. It is her job to see that FOI requests are filled, as the law requires. She caught the RCMP breaking the law, and then the government retroactively changed the law to make their law-breaking legal. That's grounds to be "upset."

Quote:

Originally Posted by mosquito

and this article is just fiction...
http://globalnews.ca/news/1998184/wa...nload-it-here/

That data includes no personal identifying information. It is just a list of guns. You can't use it to create a registry, because it doesn't identify who owns the guns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikePal

And they have been held accountable..

How many have been fired? Suspensions with pay more than likely. Doesn't undo the damage. Kind of like buying carbon credits. Doesn't reduce the carbon now does it?

Actually I did apply to work on the registry about 6 years ago, but I didn't get the contract. But no I don't have a copy of it under my bed. I do know people who worked on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikePal

Come on...now your just floundering in the 'Tin Foil Hat' level of reality...LOL...