Mayor Tory calls for tightened gun controls.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

John Tory is also doing the exact opposite of what he said on road tolls.

A Star writer two Sundays ago wrote a column on property taxes.Toronto is one of the lowest property tax rates in the GTA ,Oakville,Pickering,Oshawa all far higher.So instead of telling the truth and saying he should put up Toronto taxes he is messing with drivers.I agree they all want to hang onto their jobs.But in the next election this will not happen.

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Stuff in Toronto is rapidly coming off the rails (no pun intended). Their budgetary requirements for transit,highway maintenance (Gardener Exp) and other infrastructure is almost completely unattainable even with federal and provincial funding unless City council raises Toronto's mill rate to be on par with the rest of Ontario. If I moved my home and property into Toronto from Clarington,it's market value would be well in excess of $1M. My taxes out here are $4400 per year. In Toronto,they'd be under $3K. Something is ridiculously wrong with that picture.

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Originally Posted by terrym

This is the elephant in the room. Toronto have the highest level of infrastructure and services and pay disproportionately less taxes than most. No politician has the balls to go down that road though.

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I agree, but how come Tory can get on a soap box and say he CANNOT or WILL NOT put up property taxes. If this MPAC creation was working properly and they were not allowed to set the mill rate so low things would be much better.

Its very insulting to ask a motorist travelling from say Burlington who is paying throw the nose property taxes a fee just to get to work downtown.How about taxing the crap out of the cyclists.how about spending less money.

My BIL works for Transportation they got a 10 million dollars increase in budget this year. I had no idea salt had gone up so much?

Apparently they went out and bought a who new fleet of vehicles that are just sitting around.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Stuff in Toronto is rapidly coming off the rails (no pun intended). Their budgetary requirements for transit,highway maintenance (Gardener Exp) and other infrastructure is almost completely unattainable even with federal and provincial funding unless City council raises Toronto's mill rate to be on par with the rest of Ontario. If I moved my home and property into Toronto from Clarington,it's market value would be well in excess of $1M. My taxes out here are $4400 per year. In Toronto,they'd be under $3K. Something is ridiculously wrong with that picture.

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Same here in Mississauga and it has not changed since the 80,s.Toronto always lower and they have all the amenities.Oshawa apparently is pretty high.

Thats kind of what I was alluding to with respect to the Jungle. I'm going back years and to a life I often "forget". In the late 70s early 80s. People, be they guys like me, or beat cops like you could wander around Regent Park at all hours. Yeah there were loose gangs and yeah there was a certain element of danger/risk, but really......Many was the night I could and did venture into and out RP and not once did I have someone wave or point a gun at me.

Fast forward just a handful of years around the time vest were more common, but not everyone wore them,and beat cops had an unwritten rule, not to pursue anyone into the Jungle without backup. Never and not sure if that was just something the guys pounding the pavement decided themselves, or if it was policy (specific to the precinct). Not sure if your familiar with the Jungle, but on the South side of Yorkdale mall is a wall, and yep it was a fortress wall for all intents and purposes. It was "do not pursue anyone past that wall" without back up. If they make into the Jungle let them go.

[COLOR=#333333]' It was "do not pursue anyone past that wall" without back up. If they make into the Jungle let them go.'


Bad policy you can never let the bad guys control or even think they could control an area.I was sent up to Jamestown Cres in Rexdale in 1988, the COPS and Morality had done a dug project and had done a take down the day before.They fu----d everything up,arrested innocent civilians,all because there was no local intelligence.The locals fire bombed the station 23 division.

No wall in RP if you were wanted or seen committing a crime the foot chase was on.Now a lot of the car guys would not enter RP on regular patrol because they were uncomfortable.I basically lived there.lol

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Originally Posted by JBen

Now the thing I wanted to clarify, emphasize. Me as both a gun owner and a citizen.

I'm interested in

Results!
Results that will or can be shown to reduce the number of people getting shot, or killed by guns.

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It's one thing to say you're interested in results. It's another thing entirely to be open to the evidence of what brings results.

Right now, you're jumping through hoops to argue away the evidence that registries help to control transfers into the black market. This is not a controversial idea. In fact, this is the main purpose of registries. There is ample evidence that the handgun registry in Canada has had that effect.

I shouldn't have to point out basic economic realities here. The black market price of guns is not a function of differences in the number of guns in the US vs. Canada; it's a function of the supply of guns, and the demand for guns. Given the relatively small number of gang members in Canada, demand is not driving that price. Restricted supply is. And the fact that gangs are switching to ever-riskier sources -- from smuggling to straw buying and targeted break-ins -- supports that. The handgun registry, in concert with licensing, is the key component of the system that restricts domestic supply.

I've posted concrete evidence. I've given you a list of sources to read. Against this, no, your unvarnished opinion does not count. The fact that you hold an opinion does not make it true.

Sigh

No, what I'm saying (a few different ways) is that it didn't and hasn't been
effective. IN AND OF ITSELF, and if it were, there would be quantifiable proof and not conjecture or rather opinion...

And perhaps I shouldn't have to point out "basic economic realities" that the retail price of guns in the US is considerably cheaper than the retail price here. So wtf do you expect? Wow what a revelation, Im totally shocked, that black market guns are more expensive here. The price of a car in the US is "15,000 the same car here in Canada would cost $35,000. All your proving is.....
nothing.

Nor should I have to point out, that here in Canada we also have other Gun Control measure not found in all states, that would also account for the some, or all or most of the difference in street price.Gun laws here are the same everywhere, gun laws in the States? So is it possible Welsh that yet another reason for the difference in price are other factors? Would the fact that a legit buyer has to have an RPal here, versus say someone in Texas explain any difference between the street price of a handgun in Texas and the street price of a handgun in Toronto? What about any other differences... .......Now this I really dont know but are the penalities the same there and here? meaning if a trafficker will get 10 years here and 5years there or 20 years there. Would that not also affect the street prices?
Its all because we have a registry here that the street price for a gun in (where exactly?) is $100 and here its $1,500.....


Of coarse no one else's opinion counts except gods.

Tell yah what Welsh.
First show me the controls, you know basic elementary school stuff that normalizes all variables between the two things being compared. You do know why they are important right?

Or simply show us how prior to the registry and then post registry the street price rocketed here, and while were at a measurable drop in street prices for long guns post removal...... At least then its more apples to apples.
Else all you've shown is that the price of a car in the US is a lot cheaper than the price of a car here.
Well "duh", we know that. We all know cars are a lot cheaper in the US than here.

Oh and keep in mind there are peer reviewed studies that do show. Prior to and after the registry
No changes, it did nothing. So even if it did have some marginal impact

Gee I thought because petty criminals were priced out...........

Ultimately whatever minute impact, it didnt make us any safer.
And you can try to avoid this all you like.
Handguns are restricted, and theres a registry. It hasn't changed the fact gangs have no trouble getting them, nor has it had any measurable, quantifiable effect ( at least according to some peer reviewed studies) on the bottom line.

Our safety

And sorry for the edits :) but sometimes....

Welsh, comparing as a direct comparison the US to Canada. Way, way too many variables to (Im not sure what the word is) but I think I said, not "call into question".....If we want to do it on a broad based "GC" works and we can see that in the per capita differences....But its still not quite that simple is it. The race problems alone in the US, education/healthcare, other social issues and values......

If someone want to prove that the registry had a big impact, well its going to take studies, of things here, and only here, in essence in a controlled environment. Would love to see how someone can "normalize" all the various variables. The fact not all states have uniform laws and even penalities is going to.
If a trafficker here gets 10 years and a trafficker in (name some state) X gets 5 years. Well thats going to make a difference in the street price. Wont it?

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Originally Posted by JBen

Nor should I have to point out, that here in Canada we also have other Gun Control measure not found in all states, that would also account for the some, or all or most of the difference in street price.

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Wrong. Absent a registry, there is no way to know who sold a gun into the black market. It is the registry that makes transfers to the black market risky, because the firearm is traceable to the last legal seller. This is the reality that cuts off supply. No other measure has a comparable effect.

You're trying to argue that the fact the cops can trace the gun to the seller has no effect on the market. I suppose gangs were smuggling for fun, then? Can you suggest which other measures account for most of the deterrent effect?

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Originally Posted by JBen

Of coarse no one else's opinion counts except gods.

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As expected, you've begun making personal attacks.

Evidence trumps opinion. I've provided evidence and pointed you to sources. You respond with a personal attack.

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Originally Posted by JBen

Else all you've shown is that the price of a car in the US is a lot cheaper than the price of a car here.

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A car that costs $15,000 in the US is not $150,000 here. That's the kind of difference we're talking about.

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Originally Posted by JBen

Oh and keep in mind there are peer reviewed studies that show. Prior to and after the registry
No changes, it did nothing.

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LOL. No, there are not "peer reviewed studies." There is one, single peer reviewed study, which is based on a fallacious premise. That study is junk science, but more importantly, it did not examine the effect of the handgun registry, because it looked only at measures introduced since 1974.

For a more detailed explanation of why Caillin Langmann's study is junk science, I refer you to an article by Ted Goertzel in Skeptical Inquirer (use Google); to gain a better understanding of just how complex the variables are, you might read Stephen Pinker's The Better Angels of Our Nature (use the local library). But the point is moot, since the study never looked at the question you say it does.

I applaud your rare attempt to use evidence. Next time, make sure you're familiar with the evidence before you refer to it.

Really.
So your saying that breaking into a collectors house stealing 10-20 guns and selling them into the back market.......Its only the registry that makes it risky.

Your saying that the penalties here if your caught stealing someone those collectors versus say getting caught doing the same in name one of the 52 states and all their different laws.... Its the registry that explains why guns sell for 100 on the street there, vs 1,500 here?

Your also saying the retail prices have nothing to do with it, and its the registry that explains the 100 street price in the US and the 1,500 street here...

Really, you really want to say that "god"?

And at the end of the day.
No quantifiable, measureable peer review studies that show it made Canada any safer.
etc, etc.

Seems to me, what set this off was your superior intellect once again when I said "seems to me gangs still have no trouble getting them" given..........But appaently "Seems" doesnt count and only your opinions do.