The Calf moose discussion

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Originally Posted by Fox

So you are for an open hunt for calves as we used to have?

How do you replenish the adults then when they die of old age?

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I can only relate my considerable experience, after over 40 years of moose hunting. We have hunted in 15A, 12B, 12A, 9A, 8, and 3, over those 40 plus years. We have always held adult tags, sometimes multiple tags. I can not remember leaving a tag not filled. In all those years, I think we shot maybe 4 calves. Contrary to what some believe, calves are not easily come by. Those, with the exception of one, we’re with a cow. We were not about to leave a calf for the wolves. In those WMUs we hunted, we always saw lots of cow/calf sign, so they were around. We also saw, and have shot many yearling bulls, as they are pretty easy to call at times. We also saw many, what we believed were yearling cows, but were let pass due to the difficulty in distinguishing one from a calf. I’ve seen many camps and know if lots of groups that haven’t seen a calf to take. IMHO, calves are still there in good numbers. As I said before, cows, especially older cows, are very good at keeping themselves and their calves well hidden. I have always thought that if you had a cow tag, you should be able to take a calf, if one was present. Orphaned calves don’t stand much of a chance at survival.
At least now with the cow/calf tags, hunters can opt to take the calf and leave the cow. It also reduces the chances of shooting a cow, thinking it was a calf. Those filling calf only tags still have to be very careful to properly identify an animal as a calf, or a yearling cow….

What I don't get is a group of 15 guys with only calf tags....

So they shoot 2 calves that week, Maybe 100lbs of meat total.

Take your 6lb of meat share and call it a success?

Or do you hope for a adult tag every 5 years or so?

I have personally shot a few calves and watching the cow trying to nudge the dead calf up really put me off. I'd do it again if I could shoot the cow too, But really don't see the point in it..

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When adult tags dried up years ago in our area, that pretty much ended it for our gang.
Follow the hunting laws and hunt as you may, to each their own. One thing for certain, every calf shot has 0% chance of becoming future herd. Not my cup of tea.

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

When adult tags dried up years ago in our area, that pretty much ended it for our gang.
Follow the hunting laws and hunt as you may, to each their own. One thing for certain, every calf shot has 0% chance of becoming future herd. Not my cup of tea.

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Same can be said about an adult moose, except the adult has a much better chance of increasing the herd.
I will say that anymore, it’s not about the harvest. It’s about spending time with family and friends out in the bush. Always lots of birds to hunt…and walleye to catch !

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Same can be said about an adult moose, except the adult has a much better chance of increasing the herd.
I will say that anymore, it’s not about the harvest. It’s about spending time with family and friends out in the bush. Always lots of birds to hunt…and walleye to catch !

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Sure it can be looked at many ways.
I'm 100% with SongDog on this, my experiences have been identical. Not my cup of tea

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[COLOR=#000000]So you are for an open hunt for calves as we used to have?

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How do you replenish the adults then when they die of old age?

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That's been happening for as long as humans have been around! I think there is something else at play here

I always thought that 40% mortality thing was Hunt camp BS. Guys just made that up to feel better about shooting calves. I’ve never seen any scientific study that supports this.

I too have a hard time believing that shooting calves because whatever percentage doesnt survive the first year doesnt harm the overall population. I believe it adds pressure to the herd. If targeting calves doesnt harm the overall population why do we now have tags for calves?

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Originally Posted by dilly

I always thought that 40% mortality thing was Hunt camp BS. Guys just made that up to feel better about shooting calves. I’ve never seen any scientific study that supports this.

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When the MNR came out with the selective harvest system back in the 1980’s, they threw out a figure for calf mortality that justified the calf hunt. I don’t remember the percentage that they used but it could have been as high as 40%. Also at that time, they produced an illustration that showed herd growth based on different hunting scenarios e.g. if you shot a cow or if you shot a calf. IIRC, their projections were based on cows having twins at age 4.
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If we were talking about whitetail deer, we would have more answers as deer have been extensively studied in the USA. Unfortunately moose aren’t studied to the extent that deer are. (part of it is due to their size, population, and the environment where they live). Consequently, the MNR has to rely on studies from other countries (Europe) - where data might not be entirely applicable.

Since 1983, the MNR has learned a few things about moose such as: they are not as productive as once believed, hunter- caused mortality rates shouldn’t exceed 20% if your trying to grow more moose, calf hunting needs to be better managed, bulls aren’t adult-film stars and don’t breed many cows, and aerial surveys aren’t perfect.

EDIT: I found an Ontario study online about calf mortality is central Ontario. The study was carried out by Trent University. Here’s the abstract:
”[COLOR=#333333]Although some populations remain stable, moose (Alces alces) density and distribution have been declining in many areas along the southern edge of their North American distribution. During 2006—2009, we deployed 99 vaginal implant transmitters (VITs) in 86 adult female moose in central Ontario, Canada to assist in locating and radiocollaring neonatal moose calves. We monitored radiocollared calves to estimate calf survival and assess the relative importance of specific causes of death. Calves in the western portion of our study area (WMU49) were exposed to a 6-day general hunting season, whereas calves in the eastern portion of our study area (Algonquin Provincial Park [APP]) were not exposed to hunting. Annual survival for 87 collared calves was greater in the protected area than the harvested area (72.4 ± 6.8% and 55.8 ± 8.3%, respectively) and averaged 63.7 ± 7.1% overall. Predation by wolves (Canis sp.) and American black bears (Ursus americanus) was the dominant cause of death but occurred predominately in APP, whereas other natural mortality agents were 4× more common in WMU49. Only 16% of the collared calves in WMU49 were harvested each year despite a high proportion (approx. 50%) of accessible, public land. Most natural mortality occurred prior to the autumn hunting season such that reductions in natural mortality had little potential to compensate for calf harvest. Overall, calf survival in our study area was moderate to high and our findings suggest predator control or further restrictions of calf hunting in this area is not justified.”

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Originally Posted by redd foxx

That's been happening for as long as humans have been around! I think there is something else at play here

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What is at play is opened up logging roads, ATVs, access to all the property that was not accessible before for the moose to get away from the hunting pressure.

If you go to a cattle operation and tell the farmer they have to take out only the calves and continue their herd they will look at you like you have 2 heads. It is not that calves were shot it is that calves have been open season for so long. It should be managed like every where else, bulls only with a minimum size/age of the rack and cows/calves with a special tag when the population needs adjustment. Pay $15 to get into the draw like you do for an elk and then you can get that bull.

What they have done with these changes is long overdue, hopefully our moose population will come back. Oh, and don't say that you see lots at your hunt camp so the numbers must be fine, the moose population is in real trouble province wide, there are pockets that is it ok but it is hurting overall.