Alternative to Force Fetch

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

I agree and you will look long and hard to find anything Wild Rose puts on the ground that is competitive in NA retriever trials. What he is good at is putting the best down. This is hardly worth the discussion and to the contrary....quite a joke in the retriever world.

Best to reread Labber's post.

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I also suggest a reread of Labber's post to anyone just getting to this thread. It's well put.

Jim, I've drawn attention to a sentence above. Putting down the best 'who' ? The best North American field trial dogs? Okay. But the best....hunting dogs? Retrievers that never see a trial or test? A dog only gets titles because the person who owns the dog filled out an entry form, paid an entry fee and did the work at a trial or test. Just because a dog doesn't have a title attached to its name doesn't mean it was a crappy dog. It does mean the person who owned it either couldn't pass a test/trial or wouldn't enter one in the first place for various reasons (not interested being the main one in my mind). In your world, titles mean everything and 200 yard marks are regular. Zippy, fast and flashy dogs are also part of the regular field trial package. Do they do the work you teach them? Absolutely. But the *average* hunter who isn't interested in trials or testing wants a dog with good manners, a calmer disposition, a dog that won't tip the canoe when it launches out of it is another good trait, etc etc. To field trialers, there is nothing greater than a dog with lots of style and speed, and that's great for a field trialer. I'm not putting that kind of dog down. But it's not what everyone wants.

Back to Labber's comment: not every dog has to be force fetched. It has its definite pros -- there is recourse for a handler to use when a dog decided he doesn't want to play by the handler's rules. Absolutely, I agree. But as Labber said, if the owner is happy with the dog bringing the bird back to his feet most of the time, good enough....then FF isn't the end all and be all for all. For anyone competitive in the dog sports, I imagine FF is the best choice to get a consistent retriever. If you're a weekend hunter and you're not shooting ducks at 200 yards, chances are if you have a dog who is keen to retrieve, those alternatives to FF may work just fine.

Alana,
To be clear the 'who' is not the dogs but rather the trainers that have been put down.

I don't disagree with you concerning field trials and whether they are everyone's cup a tea but that is not what this discussion is about.
Shooting ducks at 200 yards is also not the issue but retrieves of that distance can be common with factors such as wind cripples etc but again that is not what this is about.

This is about misleading marketing in the retriever world. You know the claims.....dogs come naturally FF, steady etc etc. The claims about them being the best yet have not and do not ever get in the ring to prove the claimed talent.

My comments were never about an average hunter or a person not being interested in trials or a dog being a good companion that has been taught what 'hold' is as compared to FF. I'm quite sure that can work for many dogs. That being said, FF is a valid part of basics leading through to producing a well behaved dog who will demonstrate good manners.

Bottom line in any FF discussion is the lack of understanding 'why' we do it and most certainly the lack of knowledge of how to do it. That in itself causes much confusion and misunderstanding about the purpose of FF.

Hi Jim,

thank you for specifying the 'who' part, as in the original post I quoted of yours, it wasn't clear.

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

Bottom line in any FF discussion is the lack of understanding 'why' we do it and most certainly the lack of knowledge of how to do it. That in itself causes much confusion and misunderstanding about the purpose of FF.

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This I wholly agree with. To be honest, I think it's the first F that offends most people right out of the gate. It should have been called something else. I actually spent last week having a very honest discussion with a friend of mine who was/is doing the internal debate on force fetch with her dogs. I personally don't see the big deal if a dog has shown you an instance where it's applicable. Chances are, most dogs will (and hers definitely has). I think most dogs learn best when they understand praise for obedience and consequences for blatant disobedience. Dubbing it 'Force Fetch' was a disservice to the concept.

And the OP wanted to talk about FF versus the alternatives. I hope he and any other readers find what they're looking for after getting all the information.

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

To be clear the 'who' is not the dogs but rather the trainers that have been put down.

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Well, it is both the dogs and the trainers. Stewart puts down just about everybody, which is what gives his schtick little class.

But to reset for a moment....

This has become a thread about retriever training. The OP owns a spaniel. As I pointed out earlier, lots of spaniel trainers don't FF their dogs. And I don't see dogs failing to retrieve to hand. Dogs that fail hunt tests or get put out of trials mess up in other ways, the most common being steadiness. The stress in training is on other things because the stress in the field is is on different tasks.

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Originally Posted by welsh

This has become a thread about retriever training. The OP owns a spaniel. As I pointed out earlier, lots of spaniel trainers don't FF their dogs. And I don't see dogs failing to retrieve to hand. Dogs that fail hunt tests or get put out of trials mess up in other ways, the most common being steadiness. The stress in training is on other things because the stress in the field is is on different tasks.

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Don't be surprised when FF cleans up that garbage and those issues disappear.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Well, it is both the dogs and the trainers. Stewart puts down just about everybody, which is what gives his schtick little class.

But to reset for a moment....

This has become a thread about retriever training. The OP owns a spaniel. As I pointed out earlier, lots of spaniel trainers don't FF their dogs. And I don't see dogs failing to retrieve to hand. Dogs that fail hunt tests or get put out of trials mess up in other ways, the most common being steadiness. The stress in training is on other things because the stress in the field is is on different tasks.

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Welch, that's a pretty accurate assessment.

Pretty much any dog can be taught delivery to hand and teaching a sound hold for spaniels or any other breed is entirely possible. If the major criteria is just delivering a bird to hand then have at it. Some dogs are more prone to doing this.

However, please do not assume this thread is now about retriever training , it is not. In our world dogs must deliver to hand, not just a frontal approach but sit and deliver and more importantly focus on the next task, be it another mark to pick up or a blind retrieve. Every moment you delay messing around with a dog with a sloppy hold or bird dropping delays the next retrieve. The concept is simple, waste too much time and you begin to erase memory and certainly focus.

The aspect of FF that applies to all dogs irregardless of breed is learning how to remove pressure and that in itself is paramount. There will always be some pressure used in training, we use pressure all the time. This is not to be confused and read as physical pressure. As I'm sure most everyone does understand how they apply pressure to arrive at certain learnings....house training, obedience training etc.

The process arrived at through teaching FF teaches a dog how to remove pressure, and therefore adapt a level of compliance regarding the task. It is like constructing a solid foundation for future learning.

By the way most dogs eliminated in our field trials are eliminated for poor marking and lack of control. Very few , even the high flyers are seen 'breaking' in today's competition. Just as an aside, I see more dogs breaking on our water fowl hunting shows and their safety is often not regarded but this appears to be acceptable to that crowd....sorry to digress

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Originally Posted by Jakezilla

Don't be surprised when FF cleans up that garbage and those issues disappear.

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FF which is starting to be called "trained retrieve" by many trainers because of the force fetch sounding to politically incorrect, is not just about the retrieving aspect of it all, like Jake mentions it will help clean up other problems by the dog willingly complying to other commands when the dogs learn who is running the show......

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Originally Posted by bdog

FF which is starting to be called "trained retrieve" by many trainers because of the force fetch sounding to politically incorrect, is not just about the retrieving aspect of it all, like Jake mentions it will help clean up other problems by the dog willingly complying to other commands when the dogs learn who is running the show......

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BINGO! Someone else understands the rational!

Whoa, I didn't look at this for a bit. I think everybody was a little confused with the purpose of this thread. I have read countless articles and watched videos on FF. I am not at all against it. What I am against is sending my dog away for 6 weeks and if I feel I need to do it I will do it myself with some help from somebody experienced. I posted this for those out there that get tired of hearing all the trial guys tell them that if you don't FF you are going to have a garbage dog. I don't know much about Wildrose other than what I have read and have no idea what kind of dogs they put out nor do I care. I have a welsh springer spaniel and only referenced the articles as they are working for me. I agree with what some others have said on here. You guys forget that you are on a hunting forum as well as some that do trials. Not everybody has the time, money or desire to have the dogs that retrieve for miles and run a perfectly straight line when it may be more practical in real life scenarios to run around something. At the moment my dog at 1 year old has far exceeded my expectations of him in the field and I will be fine tuning him for his whole life. He currently will quarter, flush pheasants and rabbits, retrieve them and deliver to hand. Is it with finesse? No, but at 1 year old I have no complaints. Thanks guys for your inputs and I always appreciate a good debate however when one side is close minded we might as well be hitting our heads against the wall. Kraka, Burly, Jakezilla I know you are well known in the sport and appreciate your responses and know you are very successful in your training however there is a chance some others may have dogs or themselves that may benefit from a slightly different approach. I by all means am no expert and have none of the experience you do but I am having fun training my dog and am seeing great progress and in the end if I have a dog that has manners in the field and will bring a bird right to me without eating it or dropping it I am happy.

Good to hear you are having success and enjoying your journey! That's what it's all about.