Sage Grouse Country

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Originally Posted by Ugo

... sit on a tree branch. Both of these types of grouse reside in Ontario.

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my dog points birds that are on the ground nicely. that's what she has been sufficiently been exposed to.
sometimes I notice she gets birdy, but doesn't locate any birds. a while ago, we hunted a game farm just after some guys with a flusher bumped lots of birds. same thing, but this time I was able to link it to the treed birds.
so unless she sees a bird land in a tree (which would only happen if she bumps it herself), she has no idea that the scent could come from a tree.
last week, I started to have her retrieve smelly things that I've hidden in the bush at different heights. chest height was a real challenge at the beginning.
any thoughts on the benefit of hunting the 3rd dimension and if so, training approaches?

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Originally Posted by Waftrudnir

my dog points birds that are on the ground nicely. that's what she has been sufficiently been exposed to.
sometimes I notice she gets birdy, but doesn't locate any birds. a while ago, we hunted a game farm just after some guys with a flusher bumped lots of birds. same thing, but this time I was able to link it to the treed birds.
so unless she sees a bird land in a tree (which would only happen if she bumps it herself), she has no idea that the scent could come from a tree.
last week, I started to have her retrieve smelly things that I've hidden in the bush at different heights. chest height was a real challenge at the beginning.
any thoughts on the benefit of hunting the 3rd dimension and if so, training approaches?

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I caught on to this years ago. It was a woodcock that I dropped yet the dog just couldn't figure out where it was. After a bit of looking found it hung up in a high bush about chest high. Since than all my dogs are exposed to the reality the bird may be anywhere. Your approach is about right. There other thing it also keeps the head up as opposed to the nose on the ground for me a better look to the dog.

regarding the nose position, I'm happy with my dog. she's learnt to adjust.
I used to be concerned as she always had the nose on the ground, so I trained her to search with a high nose.
then she always had the nose up, which is really only suitable for a true bird dog. so then I thought her that nose on the ground has quite some advantages, too.
in hindsight, I don't know if all that training benefited the dog as much as it benefited myself - it finally boosted my confidence that the dog knows what works best for the individual situation/game.

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Originally Posted by Waftrudnir

regarding the nose position, I'm happy with my dog. she's learnt to adjust.
I used to be concerned as she always had the nose on the ground, so I trained her to search with a high nose.
then she always had the nose up, which is really only suitable for a true bird dog. so then I thought her that nose on the ground has quite some advantages, too.
in hindsight, I don't know if all that training benefited the dog as much as it benefited myself - it finally boosted my confidence that the dog knows what works best for the individual situation/game.

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I agree how a dog looks isn't important as long as the hunter likes the way the dog gets the job done. Like the line "in hindsight, I don't know if all that training benefited the dog as much as it benefited myself" learning how to hunt with a dog is quite an art form. Being strong enough to resist the pressure to be told you need to hunt this way to be successful and having the confidence to hunt the way you like is most important.

To piggy-back on someone else's comment, "You can use a crescent wrench or a hammer to drive a nail."
Sometimes folk just need to be enlightened rather than pressured.

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Originally Posted by Ugo

To piggy-back on someone else's comment, "You can use a crescent wrench or a hammer to drive a nail."
Sometimes folk just need to be enlightened rather than pressured.

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Asking an honest open question on what others expect from their dogs when it comes to precisely locating treed birds (up to what height), I didn't expect that response. Nonetheless, it provided some insight - sort of.

Sorry Waft. I was in fact responding to fff regarding the comment of "resisting pressure....."
As for treed birds, it is my opinion that dogs find birds predominantly through their sense of smell. That said, a dog doesn't care where that scent source emanates from - high, low, in a tree, in water, on the ground, etc. etc.
Pointers, flushers have their own forte. Versatile breeds have a broader band of less specialized strengths by design. To ask your dog to get every situation right every time is the same as asking you to NEVER miss a decent shooting oppportunity and we all know the answer to that.
Dogs often develop through their life experiences - predominantly, those we provide. If you frequently hunt/find birds "in trees", your dog will figure this out....trust me.
Take your dogs hunting. They will adapt to the many varied situations you/your species will avail.

Some dogs learn, while some never will. Keep in mind that they didn't pick their parents...........or their owner.

Ugo, no problem, but yes I was kind of surprised by your previous post.
Regarding the dog's own expectation on where to find birds, we started working on mixing it up a bit. so far so good. if she doesn't locate anything on the ground she scans the "smell trajectory". not yet usable for any practical purposes in dense bush (other than retrieving), but it's a start.
I'm not a grouse expert (I grew up hunting wild pheasants), but I've witnessed many ruffed grouse >15m in mature forests during deer hunting (impossible to spot unless you're there when the land). Considering the wind, which is not a simple thing like in an open field and subsequent scent dilution, I wonder what could one expect from an achieved grouse dog.
For the record, I'm not expecting my current dog to excel in that league. Only wondering how many grouse are missed in big trees.

I'm not sure I understand your question Waft, but here goes anyway. Birds in trees are not sport for me personally so if we pass them by, it's just part of the game. There are times when dogs will make scent at the base of a nearby tree, then break off interest. As a seasoned hunter, you get to know/read your dog. I have seen this and scanned up into nearby trees as a matter of interest. This rarely pays off but it can on occasion, I guess. I prefer to mark a bird that flushes from the trees (if at all possible) and then take my chances that my dog may find it on the ground.
I vividly recall hunting an area in Caledon many years back - when you could hunt Caledon. We used to have an average of 25 grouse finds per outing. On one particular day, we had quite a number of birds flush from trees! My comment was, "I don't think we're throwing the dogs high enough." :)
Sorry Waft - not sure I can help you with this one.

So.........bringing it back to the OP, that is amazing country in big part because of the large number of opportunities to make an honest bird dog using wild savvy birds and minimal human corruption. There are no obstructions to block/confound what actually happens, no thorns, no congregation of other folk especially non-hunters, no-one yelling at you, "Do you have permission to be here?!?!?". Yup, it is truly amazing. Can hardly wait for the coming season so that I can take my latest studies out. They'll come back different dogs!