ON Issue #22 - Cap and Trade starts January 1.

Using Hydro as an example.
A) After income tax $50,000 ( gross annual roughly 75,000)
B) after income tax $35,000 (gross annual roughly 55,000)<<Still above the mean.

Both have the same size house/dwelling and use the same amount of Hydro. Lets say their monthly Hydro bill is $200/month or$2,400 a year.

Hydro takes
A) 4.8% of this persons discretionary $$
B) 6.9% of this persons discretionary $$

So when combining both Hydro and fuel.
A) loses 11%
B) loses 16%

Now, lets add person C) because both A and B live inside the city.

This person lives outside the GTA or somewhere where cheap Nat Gas isn't available ( Rural Ontario). We know they pay a lot more for Hydro because Hydro One is brutal and further delivery charges are considerably higher. How much, who knows but its a lot more. So not only is it more expensive for the same amount of Hydro, it also takes more of their discretionary money than either A or B.

When I lived in Whitby my heating budget was $100/month, or $1,200 a year. I haven't been here a full year yet, but so far for 6 weeks of cold weather $358 for propane ( which is known to be more expensive than Nat Gas). So even if heating requirements were exactly the same ( Its not, everything is more expensive than Nat Gas) all else equal person C is

Getting crushed.
And thats just Hydro, home heating...........

Kind of makes one sick how selfish and self centred, or more likely.....blind....those in the Golden TA and PS were/are. Years ago when some "Liberals" used to debate stuff here, I would often ask them if they have bothered to look around outside the GTA. What things were doing to normal, everyday, people....

JBen...it isn't the people who have good paying jobs that are the problem, it's the governments wreckless spending that is the problem. You really got to stop blaming the working middle class. Get the government to spend our tax dollars like it was coming out of their own pockets and life would be better for all of us.

Wrong Fatri.
No matter how you slice it, "you get the government you deserve".

If two newcomers ( one con and one Lib) are duking it out and the Con wins, say Donald Trump and he goes on to blow things up. Can the electorate really be faulted? Nope. if JT does this or that over the next 4 years, can the electorate really be faulted? Not really, because theres no record....life is like a box of chocolates..

What you don't seem to understand or want to understand, is I'm not blaming the "middle" class.
I'm placing the "blame" squarely where it belongs.On those who campaigned for and voted for this admin. At this point it's not Ms Wynnes fault, no matter what she does, not anymore. Theres a quote floating around cyber space that goes something like this. When you elect corrupt politicians your not a victim, your an accomplice.

People chose to elect them twice more.
And who were those people?
One just needs to look at an electoral map ( the GTA) and live on this planet to know and remember who campaigned oh so hard for them, spent millions, millions....

Im putting the blame and am unafraid to do so squarely where it belongs.

I'm going to quote something from a text book I'm reading (studying for yet more qualifications as a financial planner). I'm not sure where the "disconnect" is. So much is known these days about so many things and yet by and large there still seems to be some kind of disconnect. Perhaps it's because people who think they are "middle class" but aren't have lost touch with just who the middle class are? I don't know. But I can tell you, when you live and work in area where jobs are numerous, where the average household income is far above the "mean" (aka the Golden TA) perhaps it easy to think grossing $60,000, $80,000, having Pensions is the "norm". It's not.

Quote:
Lower savings/Higher Debt
High taxes and stagnant incomes have diminished the ability of many Canadians to save. The savings rate is now at it's lowest level in more than two decades and household debt relative to disposable income is at a record high. In some cases this lower savings rate may be a result of "trying to make ends meet", while in others income may be funding mortgage payments on a residence, which ultimately increase net worth and potentially fund retirement. The operative or key phrase in that is high taxes and stagnant incomes. This has been known for decades.........

"you get the government you deserve"
After so long, and so much it is no longer Ms Wynne's fault. Im sure we are all able to look at an electoral map and see that big solid block of red.....and recall who went to war for them. Not once, not twice but 4 times. And why.

Blame the middle class?
lol, I feel sorry for them. It makes me "sick" when I look around the province. Know what I know.
See the job losses where plants have closed and more are fleeing......
Think about families who earn the means ( duo income 70k) what it cost to live these days, what it takes to save for a car, a trip somewhere once every 4 or 5 years, their kids..........and ultimately retirement, especially if they don't have Pensions ( the vast majority of the populace) and on and on and on.

Another quote from the same text.
It is estimated that 70%-75% of preretirement income is needed to continue a comparable lifestyle during retirement Where will this money come from?

Old Age Security and Canada Pension plans provide a maximum benefit of $20,000 per eligible person, no matter how high the pre-retirement income (and contributions). in short the gap between retirement dreams and reality can be bridged only by savings.The combination of shorter working life and a longer retirement (possibly more than 25 years due longevity) makes this challenge increasingly difficult.

Longevity is also challenging many financial planning or investment planning models or assumptions. It may be that an individual or his/her spouse be retired longer than they worked!!! Obviously in the absence of defined benefit pension plans, retirement savings will need to be greater".
*********

At this point, after so much and so long. It's not Ms Wynnes fault. That falls on those who kept them in power. And there have been so many debates, and not just here. Everywhere, about Rural Ontario.... And or the "middle class"

Hell even JT knows they are hurting.

People the only way out of this mess created by all the big 3 parties is the Libertarian Party. No joke, after mulling over the policy for months I have signed up. It was hard to convince this Conservative to do so. As I see it, they have all had a chance to change things, but it has only got more expensive, more taxes, and regulations that have been imposed on the taxpayer over this time. The bulk of the voters have no memory of gas tax for the cities in the early 90's that was supposed to be used for infrastructure. Collective memory is gone to the new voters.

I would seriously consider having a look at the party:
http://www.libertarian.on.ca/content...and-principles

Statement of Ultimate Goals and Principles

STATEMENT OF ULTIMATE GOALS

A. Libertarian Statement of Principles

We, the members of the Ontario Libertarian Party, support the following principles:

1. Each individual has the right to his or her own life, and this right is the source of all other rights.
2. Property rights are essential to the maintenance of those rights.
3. In order that these rights be respected, it is essential that no individual or group initiate the use of force or fraud against any other.
4. In order to bar the use of force or fraud from social relationships and to place the use of retaliatory force under objective control, human society requires an institution charged with the task of protecting individual rights under an objective code of rules. This is the basic task, and the only moral justification for, government.
5. The only proper functions of government, whose powers must be constitutionally limited are:
   
   • settling, according to objective laws, disputes among individuals, where private, voluntary arbitration has failed;
   • providing protection from criminals;
   • providing protection from foreign invaders.
   
   
6. As a consequence of all the above, every individual -- as long as he or she respects the rights of others -- has the right to live as he or she alone sees fit, as a free trader on a free market.

B. PREAMBLE

The ultimate goal of the Libertarian Party is to achieve a social structure in which initiatory coercive force is illegal. In order to achieve this goal, the following conditions are necessary:
C. INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS

• Each individual shall exercise sole responsibility for his or her own life.
• No person shall interfere in the life of any other person except with the agreement of that person.
• Governments shall have no authority to interfere in the life of any person who is engaged in legally acceptable endeavors.
• No individual, body of individuals, or corporation, shall have any right which is paramount to the rights of an individual.
• Individuals shall have, but not be limited to, the following rights: freedom of association, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom to engage in enterprise, freedom to protect one's own life and property, ownership of property, and protection of privacy.

D. JUSTICE

• All laws creating victimless crimes will have been repealed and no person will be charged in any proceeding to which penal sanctions apply unless there is a victim.
• A person charged with a crime shall be compensated for his costs if found innocent.
• A person who causes harm or damage to the person or property of another shall make restitution.
• Victims or their successors shall be entitled to receive restitution for their loss.
• Each person shall honor his or her agreements where not to do so would harm another person.

E. GOVERNMENT

• Government shall be empowered to use force to protect the rights of individuals.
• Government shall control the army, police, and courts.
• Government may not obtain tax money by force.
• Government shall not regulate commerce, establish monopolies, or start any business which competes with private enterprise and shall, within a reasonably short time, divest itself of state-owned enterprises.
• Government shall be prohibited from operating at a deficit.
• Government shall provide no subsidies or grants to individuals or business unless the money has been voluntarily contributed to government for that purpose.

F. MONETARY POLICY

• The value of government currency and deposits shall be based upon the value of commodities and fixed assets which support it.
• It shall be illegal for the government to create currency or deposits in excess of the appraised value of the assets backing the economy.
• The government shall not regulate monetary policy.
• Individuals and corporations may issue their own currency.

G. SOCIAL WELFARE

• Government shall be prohibited from giving money to charitable endeavors unless the funds are voluntarily contributed to government for that purpose.
• Charity and social welfare should more properly be administered by voluntary organizations.

The Nation Platform:

https://www.libertarian.ca/platform

Economic - 15% flat tax - Simplify Tax Code
The Libertarian Party of Canada stands for free market economic policies, property rights and entrepreneurship. As such, the Libertarian Party would:

• Reduce federal income taxes to a maximum rate of 15% and increase the personal income tax exemption amount to $17,300 from $11,500
• Eliminate all tax credits, and replace them with 4 additional exemptions, valued at $4,000 each (Child, Senior, Disability, Student)
• End all forms of corporate welfare
• Audit the Bank of Canada’s effect on inflation and gradually phase out government control over the money supply

Environment
Environment:The Libertarian Party of Canada recognizes the importance of a clean and healthy environment to all Canadians. The property rights of all Canadians must be respected to ensure responsible and accountable use and preservation of our natural resources. As such, the Libertarian Party of Canada would:

• Enforce property rights so individuals have full ownership over their land and the natural resources above and below it
• Encourage a system whereby harm and property damage as a result of pollution can be dealt with through the judicial system
• Remove eminent domain legislation by repealing the Expropriation Act

Foreign Policy

The Libertarian Party of Canada stands for a foreign policy of honest trade, peace, and diplomacy. As such, the Libertarian Party would:

• Immediately withdraw Canadian armed forces from international conflicts. The Libertarian party strongly opposes the foreign interventions of the past 13 years
• Reallocate military resources for the purpose of national defence, and Arctic sovereignty.
• Restructure the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development in the following way
  
  1. Eliminate all forms of government foreign aid
  2. Encourage remittances. Doing so means that aid is voluntarily given and done so without ending up in the hands of corrupt foreign governments.
  3. Unilaterally end all tariffs on foreign goods.

Criminal Justice
The Libertarian Party of Canada opposes the criminalization of victimless crime. As such, the Libertarian Party would re-evaluate all victimless crimes in the federal criminal code. This will allow for law enforcement to spend its time and budget on targeting and punishing violent offenders.

1. Sex work

The Libertarian Party of Canada would legalize sex work. Doing so respects the decisions of consenting adults, while making life safer for those who choose to engage in sex work. This policy also ensures that law enforcement can focus on human traffickers, and not its victims.

1. The War on Drugs

The Libertarian Party of Canada would end the war on drugs by legalizing cannabis and immediately decriminalizing the consumption and possession of drugs. The war on drugs has cost Canadian tax payers billions of dollars in enforcement and incarceration of citizens who have harmed no one besides themselves. Drugs should be dealt with through harm reduction strategies, and as a matter of public health, not through the criminal justice system. The decriminalization of illicit substances ensures that organized criminals, both domestic and foreign, cannot profit from the drug trade.

Privacy Rights

The Libertarian Party recognizes the importance of the right to privacy and as such would:

• Immediately repeal bill C-51
• End Warrantless Searches

Keeping the Government Out of Our Bedrooms (and Every Other Room)
The Edward Snowden & Wikileaks revelations have had lasting repercussions in both the United States and in Canada. Without due process, governments have unreservedly begun spying on innocent citizens, justifying their actions in pursuit of nebulous terrorist threats. Due to these disclosures, the Libertarian Party would seek to curb and eliminate all government surveillance programs that operate without a Warrant. More specifically, the Libertarian Party of Canada would pass legislation that would forbid government, and all government agencies, from spying on personal information without a warrant issued in open court. This includes ending mass surveillance operations, including the collection of metadata. As a result, the Libertarian Party would rein in the actions of Canadian surveillance agencies, ending the practice of blanket surveillance and placing these organizations under strict independent civilian oversight mechanisms. An open and honest mechanism to thwart terrorism will be just as effective as surreptitious means.
Who’s Bullying Whom?
Anti-cyberbullying legislation, although well intended to curb online abuses, subjects Canadians to privacy abuses at the hands of government and corporations with Bills C-13 and S-4. The Libertarian Party would immediately repeal the lower Warrant thresholds for obtaining personal information, which will effectively restore privacy rights by upholding the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. The Libertarian Party will also remove the immunity provisions for telecommunications providers who hand over personal data to government agencies without a warrant. If a telecommunications company is to disclose personal data to third parties, including government, it should only be done with the presence of a warrant or the expressed consent of the customer.
Restoring the Rights Lost in Bill C-51
Bill C-51 is an egregious violation of Canadian privacy rights, which are protected under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The information sharing provisions overturn the public sector privacy protections set out in the Privacy Act. Organizations like CSIS should not be given the power of law enforcement agencies, and their findings should not be applicable to the prosecution of Canadian citizens. This bill should never have been brought forward in a democratic nation, and all aspects of it will be fully repealed under a Libertarian government.
Focusing the Canadian Security Establishment on Foreign Threats
The Canadian Security Establishment (CSE), lesser known than CSIS, provides Canadians with security in regards to foreign threats, but in no way should it subject Canadian citizens to charter rights violations. To ensure that Canadians are not having their privacy infringed upon, the Libertarian Party would establish an independent oversight board to ensure privacy is protected. The Libertarian Party would also create legislation prohibiting the mandate of CSE from warrantlessly spying on Canadian citizens. Lastly, the Libertarian Party would end all forms of collaboration with foreign surveillance agencies, especially the NSA, that could infringe upon the privacy rights of innocent Canadians. Simply, the CSE should work to protect, and not punish, Canadian citizens

Aboriginal Affairs

The Libertarian Party of Canada recognizes the right of First Nations, Metis and Inuit peoples to meaningful autonomy and jurisdiction over their territories. This jurisdiction includes natural resources, mining rights, local economic affairs and community membership.
The Libertarian Party would:

• Replace the Indian Act with a blanket guarantee of sovereignty for all indigenous groups.
• End all federal restrictions and obligations on indigenous territories
• Streamline the Land Claim process
• Find and eliminate systemic discrimination against indigenous peoples

Regulatory Agencies
The Libertarian Party of Canada realizes that government regulatory agencies often do far more harm than good. These regulatory agencies ultimately hurt consumers by increasing costs and curbing competition. As such, the Libertarian Party of Canada would:

• Repeal the powers of the CRTC over radio, television and communications
• Eliminate the unfair price manipulation and quota system of the Dairy Board.
• Reduce the CATSA and government fees for passengers coming from abroad to encourage more tourism and enterprise

Sensible Firearm Laws

Gun Ownership:The official position of the Libertarian Party of Canada is to remove the prohibitions and legislative obstacles for the ownership of guns by peaceful citizens for the purposes of recreation, self-defence and hunting.If elected, the Libertarian Party of Canada would:

• Repeal section 91 and 92 of the Criminal Code to make responsible gun possession legal
• Revise the legal definition of weapon and firearm to reflect that guns are tools when in the hands of qualified civilians
• Eliminate the provincial and territorial Chief Firearms Offices as a cost saving mechanism and transfer responsible gun ownership to a certification based system
• Eliminate the unfair search and seizure provisions under the Firearms Act and reverse the onus provisions so that citizens are not labelled criminals before their day in court

Health Care
The official position of the Libertarian Party of Canada is that the federal government should leave the entirety of health care decisions to provincial and territorial governments. The current system costs Canadians approximately $6,000 a year, per citizen. For the average family, their healthcare tax burden will be approximately $24,000 per year. Although Canadians spend a lot on the provision of healthcare, the system is painfully slow. The median wait time for an emergency room visit in Canada is 8.8 hours, which places Canada dead last among OECD countries for timeliness of care.
Not only do Canadians spend much of their time waiting for care, the system consistently underperforms. Canada is ranked in the bottom third of OECD countries for safe care, effective care, coordinated care and patient centered care.
To overcome these issues, the Libertarian Party of Canada would:

• Repeal the Canada Health Act
  
  1. To ensure that healthcare is a provincial responsibility
  2. To allow private alternatives for care and insurance, which will alleviate public wait times and the growing fiscal burden of healthcare. Provinces will be free to choose the system that best fits their needs

Immigration

Immigration is an essential aspect of a growing and prosperous country. As such, the Libertarian Party of Canada advocates for a welcoming immigration policy.
More specifically, the Libertarian Party of Canada would:

• Significantly decrease the bureaucratic burden for refugees and asylum seekers
• Eliminate the point system for immigration and replace it with a background check for violent or fraudulent criminal activity
• Eliminate the TFW program and replace it with a streamlined work visa program, and residency roll out. Granting foreign workers legal residency ensures that the Canadian economy continues to grow, without subjecting them to poor working conditions.
• Create sponsorship guidelines whereby organizations and individuals can sponsor immigrants if they are willing to financially support them.

Kind of agree Line O. Im a contrast in two "ideologies". Like the majority of Canadians slightly left of Centre. However 30 years on Bay Street and experience in various things has heightened ( right phrase?) my emphasis on fiscal responsibility, economic concerns (classic Conservative). Guess we might say Im a closet basket case, always fighting with myself. :)

We can't control what they do or don't do. It is up to us though and only us to hold them accountable. The US is perhaps a good example of this given both Trump and Hilary were relatively unknowns. Either one could run the country off the rails.......Who could know...It best guess only....

"When you elect corrupt politicians (or wasteful, or inept ideologues or ) your not a victim, your an accomplice"
Sums up what has and is occurring in Ontario perfectly. And its the working class and even more so those outside the land of plenty, paying huge prices for it.

As mentioned many times, certain trends and statistics are pretty clear, in summation high taxes and stagnant incomes. People have been losing ground (the shrinking middle class). Have been for years, years...

How much they waste, or steal, or flush on idiocy...will never change how much people are taxed, only how its spent. Wisely is better than flushing it, or other but at the end of the day, the middle class is still taking it on the chin. Has been for decades and these days its just brutal
*******

JBen - As a trained economist (you), I can see your struggle. But the simple fact is government is far in the pocket of people on taxation in all forms. I used to think the liberals supported the PS and Cons supported big business..those were the mantras of these parties. Today the libs support the unions and big business in bed with them, Hydro/Green/Unions/Road Construction Companies. Further to this is blatant cheap hydro in the urban areas, if you transpose a map of the electoral wins in the last election you will see a sea blue all over the province and every urban center red. Then when you look at the hydro rates in blue areas it is 1.5-3.5% higher. Cities are subsidized by provincial coffers. Why is the same value of house in Toronto half the property tax rate of Ottawa or Thunder Bay, city are subsidized. The worst part over the electoral map color scheme is the fact that no rural vote counts anymore if can appease the urban vote. Effectively removing the democratic process and rights from rural voters. It quite sad to the map and know your vote does not count. Dig even further and find in those urban ridings that hold the majority of seats also contain highest percentage of Hydro/Green/Unions/Road Construction Companies voters. I see no change even if every eligible votes outside of the urban areas 100%, it will mean nothing.

Agree 100% Line0. Ive tried many times over the year to point these things out. At times it's been misunderstood as "hatred, or envy" of PS...wrong. Its disgust at
A) blatant pandering by the politicians towards the Unions in order to win
B) Where this differs from pandering towards any business or region is the political clout Unions wield.
ms Wynne could for example grow some integrity and stop buying support from the various Green companies/industry that has gotten oh so very rich....What are they going to do about it...

****

There are all kinds of articles (for lack of better words) written on the growing divide between Rural Ontario and Urban Ontario as well. It's also evident in Federal Politics, though it doesn't have quite the same impact given the scales.

Subsidies for cities.
yep.

We can also see this in the US.
Who was utterly sick of the democrats, felt they had long been ignored and trampled on.
The working class, the rust belt and the midwest. A look at the US electoral shows the same. Again, its not quite the same hammer lock that TO and PS have on politics here in Toronto due to scales, concentration of ridings and their electoral versus ours.

might also mention Brexit
*******

We can see it in JTs response to Brad Wall yesterday with respect to the Feds forcing all provinces to put a price on Carbon. "if Brad Wall doesn't like it, he can give the money back to".

Farmers...

But here in Ontario, given everything thats occurred over say the past 8 years which includes the economic realties and hits (job losses, plant closures, towns getting utterly kicked in the gonads, loss of income for people that lost good jobs, then end up taking a job that pays a lot less to pay the bills. Aka any job is better than no job)...

Well on Im going to say on the subject is that those who compared to the working class, middle class have so much more who don't feel things as much...well. We know really who is responsible for this admin, and the crushing effect it's having on "people".

And for the record Im not an economist though I have spent years working with and in the industry, and while Im a liscenced IA and FP that to is/was a different area of the industry. Some people are Drs,some are GPs, some are surgeons, etc, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

I'm going to quote something from a text book I'm reading (studying for yet more qualifications as a financial planner). I'm not sure where the "disconnect" is. So much is known these days about so many things and yet by and large there still seems to be some kind of disconnect. Perhaps it's because people who think they are "middle class" but aren't have lost touch with just who the middle class are? I don't know. But I can tell you, when you live and work in area where jobs are numerous, where the average household income is far above the "mean" (aka the Golden TA) perhaps it easy to think grossing $60,000, $80,000, having Pensions is the "norm". It's not.

Quote:
Lower savings/Higher Debt
High taxes and stagnant incomes have diminished the ability of many Canadians to save. The savings rate is now at it's lowest level in more than two decades and household debt relative to disposable income is at a record high. In some cases this lower savings rate may be a result of "trying to make ends meet", while in others income may be funding mortgage payments on a residence, which ultimately increase net worth and potentially fund retirement. The operative or key phrase in that is high taxes and stagnant incomes. This has been known for decades.........

"you get the government you deserve"
After so long, and so much it is no longer Ms Wynne's fault. Im sure we are all able to look at an electoral map and see that big solid block of red.....and recall who went to war for them. Not once, not twice but 4 times. And why.

Blame the middle class?
lol, I feel sorry for them. It makes me "sick" when I look around the province. Know what I know.
See the job losses where plants have closed and more are fleeing......
Think about families who earn the means ( duo income 70k) what it cost to live these days, what it takes to save for a car, a trip somewhere once every 4 or 5 years, their kids..........and ultimately retirement, especially if they don't have Pensions ( the vast majority of the populace) and on and on and on.

Another quote from the same text.
It is estimated that 70%-75% of preretirement income is needed to continue a comparable lifestyle during retirement Where will this money come from?

Old Age Security and Canada Pension plans provide a maximum benefit of $20,000 per eligible person, no matter how high the pre-retirement income (and contributions). in short the gap between retirement dreams and reality can be bridged only by savings.The combination of shorter working life and a longer retirement (possibly more than 25 years due longevity) makes this challenge increasingly difficult.

Longevity is also challenging many financial planning or investment planning models or assumptions. It may be that an individual or his/her spouse be retired longer than they worked!!! Obviously in the absence of defined benefit pension plans, retirement savings will need to be greater".
*********

At this point, after so much and so long. It's not Ms Wynnes fault. That falls on those who kept them in power. And there have been so many debates, and not just here. Everywhere, about Rural Ontario.... And or the "middle class"

Hell even JT knows they are hurting.

---

What you have described JBEN has been happening since the 1970's and longer ! No you don't get the government you deserve because for the most part every government in the past 40 years has been corrupt for one reason or the other. The current federal/provincial governments are clearly corrupt but no one is removing them from cabinet/office. That's the real issue ! This will continue to go on until next election federally and provincially but once again it's too late. Cover up after cover up but no one is held accountable and sentenced to jail time.
People want to believe in a party they voted for but the sad reality is that the corruption is so deep and no one is their to hold anyone accountable . Morals, values, ethics have all been thrown out the window all for self gain.These elected officials are supposed to be ethical leaders.Policy/guidelines are in place but why isn't it being enforced ??? The corruption didn't start at the bottom.