NY coyote-hunting contest; $2,000 prize.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

From an agricultural/livestock point of view Coyotes are vermin and need to be eradicated and the MNRF has directed an open season in many WMU's (for that reason). It's not 'Hunting', its killing them.

The people who don't understand that, don't have the right to cast aspersions on those that shoot them for sport. Doing it as a registered 'cull' with, incentives for participation, benefits both the farming community, the MNRF and the sportsman who undertake the task.

But you're right there is always the social conscience types that find offense, concern themselves with the ethics etc. but in the end it's because they don't understand sound management and conservation practices.....until a coyote takes Fluffy away from them when they are out for a walk :)

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Mike Pal, In many instance your last point may have a good bit of traction. However I came across a book by Ron Baker, The American Hunting Myth, that might offer you a few surprises.
This guy fully appears to have investigate wildlife management practices, south of the line, and offers some intriguing argument to turn them up side down. I can say it was one of the most frustrating piece of literature I’ve ever tackled , but I did manage to endure to the end of it. The central theme suggests, that south of the line wildlife is being manage to insure government profits rather than responsible stewardship of the resource. If you are up for the challenge of tackling it, and want to pick up a copy of the book it was published by Vantage Press. I believe I’ve seen it offered on-line.


You don’t stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Not every one in the farming community wants all coyotes killed.
In over 43 years of hunting coyotes, very successfully, both by running hounds, mine and friends, also by calling, we have run into several farmers [orchardists ] , that have asked us /told us that they would prefer to have the coyotes left alone as they were/are the best rodent eliminators [rats/mice and rabbits ] around.
They claim that without the coyotes being around and eliminating the rodents, there is a lot of damage done in the orchards by they rabbits/mice and rats whereby they girdle the trees and eventually they die, that is a lot of hard work,money and profits lost, after all this is their lively hood.
They also claim that deer do a lot of damage by nibbling of new growth in their orchards and with coyotes around they stay away .

Our daughter says she can verify these claims by orchardists as she has a business in inspecting orchards and sees the amount of damage done.

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Around our area,there's several very large orchard operations. That's the general consensus among them,too. Most other farm operations tend to shoot Coyotes on sight with little regard for what the orchards think,serving to keep the Coyote population in check. Otherwise,Coyotes would overrun the entire area. The balance seems to work.

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

The central theme suggests, that south of the line wildlife is being manage to insure government profits rather than responsible stewardship of the resource.

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Since, in the case of Coyotes, there is no profit for the government as no 'coyote' tags are required...it's a weak argument. They are open season in a large swath of Ont as they are considered by and large vermin and not a resource..... unless you own an apple orchard...I hear.

As the population grows, so do the calls to the MNR as they move into urban areas creating human (pets) conflicts. How many family pets must die to save an apple ? HaHa

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Since, in the case of Coyotes, there is no profit for the government as no 'coyote' tags are required...it's a weak argument. They are open season in a large swath of Ont as they are considered by and large vermin and not a resource..... unless you own an apple orchard...I hear.

As the population grows, so do the calls to the MNR as they move into urban areas creating human (pets) conflicts. How many family pets must die to save an apple ? HaHa

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I only reference the central theme to explain his approach. He would see eliminating a top predator ( the coyote) from the food chain as a way to enhance deer populations in order for the government to make more profit selling deer licences, In fact the coyote hunt down in New York State is playing right into his theme in the book. He would not dismiss the coyote as mere vermin but a value asset in maintaining nature's balance. This guy knows his wildlife management and the ways it can be subject to abuse. So I wouldn't dismiss what he says lightly. If a number of the antis took this book to heart there is no telling how miserable they could make it for hunting. If you doubt what I say, it would be well worth checking the book out. For no other reason then to avoid being blind sided by some anti using some of his arguments on you.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Not every one in the farming community wants all coyotes killed.
In over 43 years of hunting coyotes, very successfully, both by running hounds, mine and friends, also by calling, we have run into several farmers [orchardists ] , that have asked us /told us that they would prefer to have the coyotes left alone as they were/are the best rodent eliminators [rats/mice and rabbits ] around.
They claim that without the coyotes being around and eliminating the rodents, there is a lot of damage done in the orchards by they rabbits/mice and rats whereby they girdle the trees and eventually they die, that is a lot of hard work,money and profits lost, after all this is their lively hood.
They also claim that deer do a lot of damage by nibbling of new growth in their orchards and with coyotes around they stay away .

Our daughter says she can verify these claims by orchardists as she has a business in inspecting orchards and sees the amount of damage done.

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Must be very uncomfortable sitting on the fence like this.Being torn between hunting them AND worrying about the orchardists.
You must know they are an invasive species in Ontario and have done untold damage to our jacks,cottontail,population.Have killed fawns,lambs,sheep,chickens.I am pretty sure our foxes that were plentiful handled the rabbits and mouse that damaged tree,s but atlas they also
fell prey to the coyotes.If we eradicated coyotes tomorrow the owls,hawks,weasels,mink,fishers,would still keep orchard vermin under control.

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

For no other reason then to avoid being blind sided by some anti using some of his arguments on you.

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I don't argue with anti's...in fact, I'm wondering why I even responded to your posts...being on a hunting forum I guess I was blindsided.

If you don't think a coyote cull is ethical...that's OK with me. BUT don't question me or others who shoot coyotes about the ethics. What we find to be a challenging sport and great fun to be participate in weekend 'culls', being out with the boys and their dogs, doing what we know is required to lower the coyote population in this area ( farming rural) is part of our ethics.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy;1077819[B

]Must be very uncomfortable sitting on the fence like this.Being torn between hunting them AND worrying about the orchardis[/B]ts.
You must know they are an invasive species in Ontario and have done untold damage to our jacks,cottontail,population.Have killed fawns,lambs,sheep,chickens.I am pretty sure our foxes that were plentiful handled the rabbits and mouse that damaged tree,s but atlas they also
fell prey to the coyotes.If we eradicated coyotes tomorrow the owls,hawks,weasels,mink,fishers,would still keep orchard vermin under control.

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We just respected their wishes, after all it is their land , we have also found a lot of farmers that wanted the coyotes shot on or around their farms.
There was/is no shortage of places to hunt, but it is getting much harder to find farms where you can run your hounds safely due to high volume traffic conditions.
Keeping and running hounds can be expensive and you face the undesirable situation of having them killed on the road due to speeders that sometimes go out of their way to run a hound down.:(
Believe me it does happen.:angry:

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I don't argue with anti's...in fact, I'm wondering why I even responded to your posts...being on a hunting forum I guess I was blindsided.

If you don't think a coyote cull is ethical...that's OK with me. BUT don't question me or others who shoot coyotes about the ethics. What we find to be a challenging sport and great fun to be participate in weekend 'culls', being out with the boys and their dogs, doing what we know is required to lower the coyote population in this area ( farming rural) is part of our ethics.

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I think you may have missed my point, which is to suggested you may be under estimating the social conscience type: “...social conscience types that find offence, concern themselves with ethics etc. but in the end it’s because they don’t understand sound management and conservation practices....” What I was simply attempting to do was provide you with a reference of one of those “social conscience type,” who has as much a grasp of sound management and conservation practices, as those involved with wildlife management. So much so, that he able to allude to a number of concerns, that current approaches to wildlife management appear to overlooked.
South of the line he see this happening as a deliberate attempt on the part of state governments to enhance profits. If it’s happening here, it is more likely a result of the MNRF always getting the short end of the straw, when it comes to the provincial budget.

As far as culling coyotes is concern knock yourself out. However I should point out that wildlife managers have suggested the most effective way coyote numbers can be reduce is through disease, such as mange.

You don’t stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

He would see eliminating a top predator ( the coyote) from the food chain as a way to enhance deer populations in order for the government to make more profit selling deer licences,

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That theory (?) has been proven wrong;

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"We often think predators control prey, but that is rarely the case. Prey controls predators; predators diminish as prey declines. It is not the case that removing wolves, cougars, and other predators causes deer to increase."

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That negates the comment;

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

” What I was simply attempting to do was provide you with a reference of one of those “social conscience type,” who has as much a grasp of sound management and conservation practices, as those involved with wildlife management.'

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Thinning coyotes thru a cull does nothing (in general) to affect the deer numbers, the MNRF biologist know this. So saying they do it to increase deer numbers so they can increase tag profits is ..well..poppycock...and what we expect from the anti's.....who obviously don't have a very good grasp of sound management and conservation practices.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

That theory (?) has been proven wrong;


That negates the comment;

Thinning coyotes thru a cull does nothing (in general) to affect the deer numbers, the MNRF biologist know this. So saying they do it to increase deer numbers so they can increase tag profits is ..well..poppycock...and what we expect from the anti's.....who obviously don't have a very good grasp of sound management and conservation practices.

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From what I was able to find, it would appear that the jury may still be out in arriving at, how much of an effect culling coyotes can have on deer populations. Habitat seems to loom large as a contributing factor as to whether it does or doesn’t. Also the season of the year. As well it has been pointed out that trapping appears to give the best results when it comes to culling. It would seems that wildlife management in some states only becomes concerned about predation if it is likely to take out more than 50% of the spring fawn population. Hence it has been suggested that the most effective time for culling coyotes seems to be April and May when the fawns are being dropped. Again, in states where there is an abundance of adequate cover for hiding fawns, predation is less problematic, which is the case in most northern states. Here in this province we probably enjoy the same benefit. Again if you’re an anti, south of the line, you have plenty of opportunity to cherry pick the circumstance you choose to speak to. There are obvious states where coyotes do have a significant effect on deer population. But again, my point was this particular author is well versed in wildlife management practices, and is a notable exception, to your dismissing antis for their lack of awareness.

P.S. I didn't say I necessarily agreed with the man, I have numerous margin notes in
the book that testify to that. But he does appear to know his subject well.


You don’t stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut