Mayor Tory calls for tightened gun controls.

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Originally Posted by skypilot

... ( gee where did they get their stats?) ... (golly gee whiz who gave them those numbers?)....

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Well, gosh golly darn, what they do is they trace the guns they seize using the handgun registry and import records to determine if the guns came from domestic sources, and then for the guns they can't trace that way, they get the ATF to trace them. And gee whiz! Not only do they learn how many guns are from local sources, and how many are smuggled, but they get a good handle on just where those sources are!

And the reason those numbers change, year to year, news report to news report? Holy moly, could it be because ... things actually do change year to year? Gosh, do I mean ... that things change over time? And that the numbers may also vary from one city to another? So that the numbers in a 2013 news report might not actually be immutable facts, enshrined in amber for folks to trot out as proof that numbers in a 2016 news report are wrong?

No, not possible. It must be a conspiracy between the police, the media, and the Liberal party. We'll just ignore the consistent warnings from police for about two years now that that the trend is towards domestic sources. Probably a hidden agenda!

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Originally Posted by skypilot

...then yes it's follows that criminals have locally sourced guns. Gangs are criminals so gangs would have guns that were locally sourced.

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And the William J. "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" Clinton award for moving the goalposts goes to ... Skypilot!

For conspicuously dishonest rhetoric in pretending that this post....

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Originally Posted by skypilot

I thought the police brass said Gang guns are locally sourced?

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... was not suggesting that the Quebec arrest proves police brass are out to lunch, but was really just agreeing with what the police brass had said in the first place!

Yes. Gangs have locally sourced guns. What point were you laboring to make, again?

Why does arguing over a wee bone matter so much. Is there a special award for the winner? Perhaps the "Master of my internet domain"
Twice in one thread
*******

There's something about the stats, a forest for the tree's kind of thing, that's tickling the shadows of my brain, can't quite put my thumb on it. Akin to when the name of a movie, person, song is on the tip of your tongue....

Will say for now (while waiting for that ah ha moment if it comes) that for me anyways, a lot of this is oh so typical double speak by politicians and finger pointing by both politicians and LEO.

Exhibit 1 to illustrate that.
In the star article Gilroy linked and I've seen it elsewhere. TPS goes on about the "alarming" number of domestic handguns being used in crimes. The second last paragraph also makes a point of bringing up long guns, the registry and Harper. " we are seeing more long guns since Harper killed the registry".

Well duh!
Criminals are getting more guns domestically. Theres more long guns here, than handguns. It stands to reason that long guns to will coincide with an increase of handguns when the supply from domestic sources increases, it has jack squat to do with the absence of the LG registry. Im utterly certain that when breaking into someones house the criminals will only steal the handguns.........I'm utterly certain when they find a seller, they are only going to buy handguns...... Im wondering if our highly paid Cheifs are really all that bright. Or perhaps more likely theres a reason he felt he needed to say that. Aka misdirection, or finger pointing....

Exhibit 2
Double speak aka "you can't suck and blow at the same time"
Obviously, the fact handguns are both restricted and registered is doing little to curb crime. None of these very many "straw" purchasers seem to care one iota that when said guns are used, or recovered theres a direct line to their front door. Either they aren't very bright, or it just doesn't matter.............

Ditto for the domestic thefts. Obviously, clearly, now that criminals seem to be adapting and turning to domestic sources that type of control is meaningless. It's not keeping the streets any safer. I mean seriously in just the one headliner

a 12 yr old boy with two machine pistols?
/wonders how a child could afford those.

And in just the other 4 or 5 headliners highlighting straw purchasing, over 100 handguns sold into the black market. Extrapolate that.

And in pretty much every case, when the noise and finger pointing is ignored it's the failings of leo, or the system.

Gilroy, I googled what measures New York City took back in the 80s/90s. It's kind of interesting to note that their crime rates, murders (per capita) etc still eclipse ours by country miles, but today NYC is one of the safest big cities in the States ( various rates below US averages) and one of the safest in the world. From one of the worst to one of the safest ( relatively) in just a decade or so.

A couple things popped out.
1) Random pat and frisk. Aka "carding"
2) Compstat (and Broken Windows this was an initiative that was later adopted in an aggressive crackdown on petty crime) . A model that today is widely accepted and used, even in a few Canadian cities ( not Toronto though).

Political will
Effective policing. In fact "Policing tactics" is the main credit.
Not clamping down Johnny Q, or expecting Johnny Q to do leo's job.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_New_York_City

It's never about increased security for taxpayers. It about guaranteeing jobs for politicians. Haven't you people realized that you now work for the government instead of them working for you? Gun control rhetoric is about changing channels. But the dimwits in this province can be led by the nose with half a candy bar.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Well, gosh golly darn, what they do is they trace the guns they seize using the handgun registry and import records to determine if the guns came from domestic sources, and then for the guns they can't trace that way, they get the ATF to trace them. And gee whiz! Not only do they learn how many guns are from local sources, and how many are smuggled, but they get a good handle on just where those sources are!

And the reason those numbers change, year to year, news report to news report? Holy moly, could it be because ... things actually do change year to year? Gosh, do I mean ... that things change over time? And that the numbers may also vary from one city to another? So that the numbers in a 2013 news report might not actually be immutable facts, enshrined in amber for folks to trot out as proof that numbers in a 2016 news report are wrong?

No, not possible. It must be a conspiracy between the police, the media, and the Liberal party. We'll just ignore the consistent warnings from police for about two years now that that the trend is towards domestic sources. Probably a hidden agenda!



And the William J. "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" Clinton award for moving the goalposts goes to ... Skypilot!

For conspicuously dishonest rhetoric in pretending that this post....



... was not suggesting that the Quebec arrest proves police brass are out to lunch, but was really just agreeing with what the police brass had said in the first place!

Yes. Gangs have locally sourced guns. What point were you laboring to make, again?

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Your research sucks as the Police have said criminals get their guns locally in Canada. Your statement that disclaims that truth by making up more of your poor research( remember that rag you pooched the research on too?) or yes yo have a liberal agenda or simply manufacture it.

Just this year the "brass" confirmed what was posted in this thread about local theft and straw buyers.

So your post otherwise towards me and greatwhite contradicting that, was as usual wrong, misinformation or a lie you manufactured. Your "nobody said that" is the goalpost and I just ran thru it.

That is my point. 61% points per the police in just this 1st and only article.
WWW.google.ca/amp/vancouversun.com/news/crime/criminals-now-getting-their-guns-in-canada-police/amp

another one closer to you
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.thes...afficking.html
I never pretended this was a conspiracy, I said police should do their job as they know who, where etc.
Remember?

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Originally Posted by skypilot

Your research sucks as the Police have said criminals get their guns locally in Canada. Your statement that disclaims that truth by making up more of your poor research( remember that rag you pooched the research on too?) or yes yo have a liberal agenda or simply manufacture it.

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As usual, you are working hard to muddy the waters.

If you review my past statements, you'll see that I have consistently argued that border enforcement is leading to a shift towards domestic sources, and that this trend is real and not fabricated for political purposes. That is to say, that criminals are now getting more of their guns locally. The links you've posted -- both of which refer to straw purchases that subsequently led to arrests -- support that contention. So it isn't clear how you think this demonstrates that my research "sucks."

The bone of contention here is not whether crooks get some of their guns from domestic sources, or even whether they get an increasing proportion of their guns from domestic sources. That would be a case of you aggressively agreeing with me, while claiming my research sucks, which would make you look like a complete idiot.

We are arguing your silly suggestion that an arrest at the border in Quebec suggests that the cops have been misleading us:

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Originally Posted by skypilot

I thought the police brass said Gang guns are locally sourced?

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In fact, neither of the articles you posted supports that contention, unless you are incapable of distinguishing what police actually said from a headline-writer's paraphrase. In Vancouver and the lower mainland, according to your first link, police had actually said that 39% of gang guns were smuggled. In Toronto, where about 2,500 crime guns are seized annually, it's about 50%, or 1,250 guns/a. We should hardly be surprised if smugglers are still arrested at the border, then, should we?

For greater clarity, the police never in fact said that gang guns are all locally sourced. The arrest of a smuggler has no bearing on what police have told us about this, either way.

Now: if you did not in fact mean to suggest that the Quebec border arrest demonstrates some problem with what the police were telling us, in spite of the clear meaning of your own words, you could simply say, "That's not what I meant. I agree that crooks are getting more of their guns locally and that the Quebec border arrest has no real bearing on that trend."

I won't be holding my breath.

Finally, you may have to refresh my memory as to what rag I "pooched" my research onto, and which research in particular I "pooched." I've worked for a lot of rags over the years.

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Originally Posted by welsh

As usual, you are working hard to muddy the waters.

If you review my past statements, you'll see that I have consistently argued that border enforcement is leading to a shift towards domestic sources, and that this trend is real and not fabricated for political purposes. That is to say, that criminals are now getting more of their guns locally. The links you've posted -- both of which refer to straw purchases that subsequently led to arrests -- support that contention. So it isn't clear how you think this demonstrates that my research "sucks."

The bone of contention here is not whether crooks get some of their guns from domestic sources, or even whether they get an increasing proportion of their guns from domestic sources. That would be a case of you aggressively agreeing with me, while claiming my research sucks, which would make you look like a complete idiot.

We are arguing your silly suggestion that an arrest at the border in Quebec suggests that the cops have been misleading us:



In fact, neither of the articles you posted supports that contention, unless you are incapable of distinguishing what police actually said from a headline-writer's paraphrase. In Vancouver and the lower mainland, according to your first link, police had actually said that 39% of gang guns were smuggled. In Toronto, where about 2,500 crime guns are seized annually, it's about 50%, or 1,250 guns/a. We should hardly be surprised if smugglers are still arrested at the border, then, should we?

For greater clarity, the police never in fact said that gang guns are all locally sourced. The arrest of a smuggler has no bearing on what police have told us about this, either way.

Now: if you did not in fact mean to suggest that the Quebec border arrest demonstrates some problem with what the police were telling us, in spite of the clear meaning of your own words, you could simply say, "That's not what I meant. I agree that crooks are getting more of their guns locally and that the Quebec border arrest has no real bearing on that trend."

I won't be holding my breath.

Finally, you may have to refresh my memory as to what rag I "pooched" my research onto, and which research in particular I "pooched." I've worked for a lot of rags over the years.

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That would be a case of you aggressively agreeing with me, while claiming my research sucks, which would make you look like a complete idiot.

Geesh...coming from the guy who has stated, "I'm not going to play anymore" and slams other people for name calling....real classy.

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Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha

Geesh...coming from the guy who has stated, "I'm not going to play anymore" and slams other people for name calling....real classy.

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LOL. Care to share the original, "real classy" version of your post, where you called me an idiot?

In fact, my post suggested that Skypilot is not pursuing the line of argument that would make him look like an idiot, so I'm sorry to inform you that it can't reasonably be construed as calling him an idiot. Make sure that when you accuse someone of name calling, he's actually done it.

At what point do readers loose interest in a thread like this....
For me it was early on, and I see I was right to ignore it....
Happy New Year

When I see the personal attacks for a few pages, I lock it down and close the thread. Not much else to add to the original intent, other than bad feelings for the new year.