Pointing dogs and not training to sit

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Originally Posted by BSP1

Honestly don’t waste your time doing NAVDHA. Spend the time getting the dog on wild birds and teaching obedience.

Wild birds teach the dog. Pen raised birds which Navdha use to “ train “ with allow the dog to make mistakes a wild bird won’t tolerate. Too much training on pen raised birds isn’t good for a hunting dog. If your intent is to hunt then get it on as many wild birds as possible.

Yes you can do some training with a Navdha chapter to introduce the pup to birds, gun fire etc but that’s it.

NAVDHA doesn’t work in the real hunting world and just makes robot dogs.

I’ve seen it where a dog wins prize 1’s in UT then gets to the grouse woods and all the NAVDHA is out the window. Dog can’t handle a grouse.

Pen raised birds allow the dog to get way to close and that can spill over into hunting. Which can lead to a dog busting birds all tbe time.


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In Ontario where are you going to get sufficient WILD bird to train a dog on. Birds do make a pointing dog! Where can you train in the off season on wild birds ethically and legally. You can train during a hunting season , you could catch migrating woodcock prior to nesting. I believe there are laws against harassing game in the off season, so where are the wild birds you speak of? Now if pen raised birds are used correctly, not allowing a dog to walk in , creep in on a planted bird it has learnt to hold that bird. A dog that points a running bird and waits for its handler is far more beneficial than a dog that points, decides on its own merits to creep on that bird risking the chance of getting too close and pushing out that bird with out the handler having an opportunity to be in position to shoot. To finish a dog to be steady to wing , shot and fall you will need domestic birds. If you have introduced and trained your dog with release trap correctly, be it with NAVHDA, a good knowledgeable dog friend down the road its adapting to wild birds will go relatedly smooth. Most inexperience trainers allow the dog to get too close and establish a point with initial release traps exposure. When the dog acknowledges bird scent, the trap should be released and the dog made to whoa.

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Originally Posted by BDH

In Ontario where are you going to get sufficient WILD bird to train a dog on. Birds do make a pointing dog! Where can you train in the off season on wild birds ethically and legally. You can train during a hunting season , you could catch migrating woodcock prior to nesting. I believe there are laws against harassing game in the off season, so where are the wild birds you speak of? Now if pen raised birds are used correctly, not allowing a dog to walk in , creep in on a planted bird it has learnt to hold that bird. A dog that points a running bird and waits for its handler is far more beneficial than a dog that points, decides on its own merits to creep on that bird risking the chance of getting too close and pushing out that bird with out the handler having an opportunity to be in position to shoot. To finish a dog to be steady to wing , shot and fall you will need domestic birds. If you have introduced and trained your dog with release trap correctly, be it with NAVHDA, a good knowledgeable dog friend down the road its adapting to wild birds will go relatedly smooth. Most inexperience trainers allow the dog to get too close and establish a point with initial release traps exposure. When the dog acknowledges bird scent, the trap should be released and the dog made to whoa.

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Birds make a bird dog. Simple as that.



One can head north and get on 20-40 birds in one day or weekend if you know where to go during the legal hunting season. So yes you could train during hunting season. And one day or a weekend in wild birds can teach a dog far more than a whole summer on pen raised birds.

Yes you should use domestic birds to train things like steady to wing and shot and other basics but you don’t need Navdha. A lot of people seem to over do it with the pen raised birds.


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As you can see there are alot of different opinions on how, when, where to train your dog. It can be daunting for a newbie as easy to feel overwhelmed. Just remember you'll be learning along with the dog and in time figure out what works for you. Listen to all and take what info works for you.
Stella's first fall of hunting was a mix of planted and wild birds.
https://live.staticflickr.com/836/29...b6637a88_z.jpg
Nova did all his summer training with one fat pigeon
https://live.staticflickr.com/4386/3...94f1dc7d_z.jpg
Though neither probably would win a trial think they work good enough for me.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

As you can see there are alot of different opinions on how, when, where to train your dog. It can be daunting for a newbie as easy to feel overwhelmed. Just remember you'll be learning along with the dog and in time figure out what works for you. Listen to all and take what info works for you.
Stella's first fall of hunting was a mix of planted and wild birds.
https://live.staticflickr.com/836/29...b6637a88_z.jpg
Nova did all his summer training with one fat pigeon
https://live.staticflickr.com/4386/3...94f1dc7d_z.jpg
Though neither probably would win a trial think they work good enough for me.

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Both your pups seem to do just fine in finding them all.

Thanks for the info everyone. IT is overwhelming trying to find what info I think will work best for me. I think it will just end up being a trial and error system and we will see how things go. I think I will teach to sit as we are around kids all the time and I do still think it is an invaluable command.

I think my big goal will simply to be get it out as much as possible and on as many birds as I can

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Originally Posted by anglodrkns

. I think it will just end up being a trial and error system and we will see how things go.

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That's how we all started. Its also what makes working a dog fun.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

As you can see there are alot of different opinions on how, when, where to train your dog. It can be daunting for a newbie as easy to feel overwhelmed. Just remember you'll be learning along with the dog and in time figure out what works for you. Listen to all and take what info works for you.
Stella's first fall of hunting was a mix of planted and wild birds.
https://live.staticflickr.com/836/29...b6637a88_z.jpg
Nova did all his summer training with one fat pigeon
https://live.staticflickr.com/4386/3...94f1dc7d_z.jpg
Though neither probably would win a trial think they work good enough for me.

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You are right. A mix of pen raised and wild is good. I’ve just seen dogs that trained strictly on pen raised and then went to the field and busted every grouse it found. Yet ir was a prize 1 dog in tests. And seen ones that did as you did using a mix that did well.


I’m not an expert nor claim to be one. For me I looked at Navdha and it wasn’t for me


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Originally Posted by BSP1

. For me I looked at Navdha and it wasn’t for me


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and that's ok. I'm a firm believer if a program or organization doesn't fit or suit your needs it shouldn't be crammed down your throat or made to feel ostracized.

BDH is right. Obedience has to come before hunting. A dog is called, comes and sits beside the handler. Same thing with retrieved bird. Creeping and catching birds is actually eliminated through good training. Cheers.

Valid points have been made pro and con regarding NAVHDA. My pup and I have a year of NAVHDA and a bird season under our belts. Despite some things I would have done differently knowing what I know now, we'll be back with NAVHDA in the coming year, but with some specific training objectives in mind.

Like any testing or trialing system (AKC, CKC, NSTRA) dogs can be taught to excel at a fake game but still suck at real world hunting. Chukars in traps won't make a bird dog any more than sporting clays will make a person into a bird hunter. But when augmented/integrated with real wild bird experience, NAVHDA can be an excellent resource. But let me be clear: NAVHDA TRAINING DAYS WILL NOT TRAIN YOUR DOG FOR YOU. Instead, they will show you basic techniques (including proper first exposure to birds and guns) that you can then apply on your own. It will also connect you with experienced people, which in my case have been a great resource outside of NAVHDA.

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Originally Posted by ninepointer

Valid points have been made pro and con regarding NAVHDA. My pup and I have a year of NAVHDA and a bird season under our belts. Despite some things I would have done differently knowing what I know now, we'll be back with NAVHDA in the coming year, but with some specific training objectives in mind.

Like any testing or trialing system (AKC, CKC, NSTRA) dogs can be taught to excel at a fake game but still suck at real world hunting. Chukars in traps won't make a bird dog any more than sporting clays will make a person into a bird hunter. But when augmented/integrated with real wild bird experience, NAVHDA can be an excellent resource. But let me be clear: NAVHDA TRAINING DAYS WILL NOT TRAIN YOUR DOG FOR YOU. Instead, they will show you basic techniques (including proper first exposure to birds and guns) that you can then apply on your own. It will also connect you with experienced people, which in my case have been a great resource outside of NAVHDA.

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some good insight there