Moose draw Round 2

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

I can't remember this being in place in Ontario. It is as enforceable as any other game laws, if the MNR wants to enforce it. They manage to enforce it in Quebec. Whoever tags out can no longer hunt and in many ZECs, when you shoot a moose, you need to attach multiple tags to it, so in a 4 tag/moose zone, you when one hunter gets a moose, three other guys need to use there tags as well, taking all four out of the hunt.

Myself and others started pushing the MNR to implement a points system over 20 years ago. They are half-way there now, and need to get rid of the group hunting on a single tag. If they did that, they could likely issue three or four times as many tags. Its really frustrating to see the rest of North America implement big game tag allocation schemes, yet here in Ontario, it is an unsolvable problem. Are Ontarians that stupid??? It's a rhetorical question - no need to answer it.

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Not allowing a group hunt with a single tag is ridiculous. Not many hunters hunt alone for moose. Over the past 50+ years I’ve hunted moose in Ontario, there have been many different scenarios implemented, ranging from every licence had a seal for any moose, to only the tag holder could shoot his moose, to two licences required for one tag, to the previous lottery/group draw, and now the points based system we have now. I’ve probably forgotten a scenario or two in that mix. The current system only needs a mechanism for unclaimed tags to be allotted. The plan to force the acceptance of a tag in the first choice/second draw, draw should help somewhat. There still need to be the ability to buy left over tags.

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Not allowing a group hunt with a single tag is ridiculous. Not many hunters hunt alone for moose. Over the past 50+ years I’ve hunted moose in Ontario, there have been many different scenarios implemented, ranging from every licence had a seal for any moose, to only the tag holder could shoot his moose, to two licences required for one tag, to the previous lottery/group draw, and now the points based system we have now. I’ve probably forgotten a scenario or two in that mix. The current system only needs a mechanism for unclaimed tags to be allotted. The plan to force the acceptance of a tag in the first choice/second draw, draw should help somewhat. There still need to be the ability to buy left over tags.

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"Not allowing a group hunt with a single tag is ridiculous" That attitude is why Ontario has a moose tag problem... well, that the bears, wolves and native hunting.

Kind of interesting to entertain the next scenario:
Ontario decides to limit number of hunters per tag.(limited Group Draw)while keeping the point system and the same amount of tags available.Meanwhile acting on the much needed corrections of the "ALLOWED to be WASTED tags" system.

One moose tag can be hunted with MAX 3 hunters .Group set before draw by members applying into it(same as elk ).Highest point gets the tag.No tag transfer allowed.No hunting with any other group.Tag used up-all stop hunting moose for the season.


This would keep the Pro Group fraction "happy"(moose hunting is challenge due to the animal size)
The "high point"hunters (moose in my back yard hunters )hunting year after year would deplete their points in few years. Meanwhile they "had" the so much cried for opportunity of a life time . They would still be able to hunt later-in less desirable areas -as many others do.As the time progresses they earn points again.This would make playing field more fair down the road.
The hunters willing to hunt"anywhere"would be able to keep doing what they do.

This would allow group hunting -yet would eliminate large groups chasing a moose in a given area.
LOT less pressure on the herd(insterad of 10-12 guys chasing the same animal-only 3 set of eyes are out )
This would likely drop (or at best maintain )moose harvest numbers.Yet everyone willing to hunt would have their fair opportunity to do so.
Keeping hunting opportunities same for all.
Keeping the points system alive.

Opinions?

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Originally Posted by gbk

Kind of interesting to entertain the next scenario:
Ontario decides to limit number of hunters per tag.(limited Group Draw)while keeping the point system and the same amount of tags available.Meanwhile acting on the much needed corrections of the "ALLOWED to be WASTED tags" system.

One moose tag can be hunted with MAX 3 hunters .Group set before draw by members applying into it(same as elk ).Highest point gets the tag.No tag transfer allowed.No hunting with any other group.Tag used up-all stop hunting moose for the season.


This would keep the Pro Group fraction "happy"(moose hunting is challenge due to the animal size)
The "high point"hunters (moose in my back yard hunters )hunting year after year would deplete their points in few years. Meanwhile they "had" the so much cried for opportunity of a life time . They would still be able to hunt later-in less desirable areas -as many others do.As the time progresses they earn points again.This would make playing field more fair down the road.
The hunters willing to hunt"anywhere"would be able to keep doing what they do.

This would allow group hunting -yet would eliminate large groups chasing a moose in a given area.
LOT less pressure on the herd(insterad of 10-12 guys chasing the same animal-only 3 set of eyes are out )
This would likely drop (or at best maintain )moose harvest numbers.Yet everyone willing to hunt would have their fair opportunity to do so.
Keeping hunting opportunities same for all.
Keeping the points system alive.

Opinions?

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Something along that line would work.
The problem with the large groups - and I think you understand that correctly - is that most tags get used - therefore fewer tags should be allocated.
Reduce the number of hunters on a tag by 30% (i.e. from 10 down to 3) and you should be able to allocate 3 times as many tags.

But... the entire mess with the large number of unclaimed tags??? Notify the hunter that he has been given a tag, and if he doesn't claim it in a week, give it to another hunter. No need for secondary draw, just keep re-assigning the tags week by week throughout the summer until they are all claimed.

Sorry but 3 hunters per tag ,is not enough. Remember we are not all young hunters.
I'm 77 and rely on help to retrieve down animal.

The only reason we don't have a system that works is that everyone has a different opinion of what the right system is. (typically what suits the way they choose to hunt). I personally don't have an issue with the current system. As for unclaimed tags, if they all got allocated more moose would be harvested and then there would just be less tags in the future. No matter how large the percentage of unclaimed tags is, if they have a target number of moose they want harvested they only need to issue more tags. Would take one year to figure that out. Or make sure they all get allocated, and in a year there would just be less given out. People keep complaining about that, but I just don't see that it will make any difference other than possibly in year one.

As I sit and read the thoughts of hunters on the topic of the Moose draw and groups, I for the life of me cannot figure out why some hunters have a problem with a group hunting Moose. The way I see it. It is a smart hunters that hunt in a group. Being from south western Ontario I don’t think it would be wise to Head north for a 4 to 7 day hunt in the north on my own. Even a hunter from Northern Ontario going out 30 to 50 km in the bush on their own is not smart to me. A hunter that lives in the north and most likely hunts in his area up to approximately 50 km away, but not always can hunt in a lot of zones for approximately 60 days. And can also scout the area. A very big advantage. A group of hunters from Lower Ontario say five hunters head out for a week. A day travelling there. A day going home. That’s five hunters hunting five days which is 25 days possibly hunting compared to the possible 60 days of a northern lone hunter. hunters complained about supposed ghost hunters before in the old system. All the Mnr had to do is enforce the tag transfers problem solved. Also, if you could apply in groups and one hunter has the points required for a tag the other hunters in the group are pulled from all remaining draws, which would possibly help solve the problem of hunters being awarded a tag and not claiming it. I also believe a loan hunter from the north has a better chance of filling the tag than the lower Ontario group. Hunting is not all about filling the tag. That is a bonus. You get out for the week with your friends and enjoy the outdoors. You can fish a little bird hunt a little and Moose hunt or stay at camp and have a few beers. Why would one hunter want to take that away from a group of hunters. Join a group you will get to go hunting a lot more and that is what it is all about.

It's funny really that I now see a lot of complaining about this new system where before everyone thought it was better than sliced bread and you got your head bitten off if one criticized it LOL.

A lot of people wanted and were so excited for this new system as they said that the prior one was biased in favour of groups as Individuals found it hard to get a tag. Now that those individuals got that out of their system and got their coveted tag, they are now finding that they have to wait a lifetime for another tag and go moose hunting, and now the complaining starts again. The only way for these folks that want to hunt moose now is to join a group.

I believe the old system worked fine as most people hunt moose in groups - that has not changed. Like or not, "ghost" hunters or whatever you call them, are legitimate licensed hunters and IMO they can do what they want with the license they legally buy. There is definitely a beauty about being a lone wolf hunter, not being accountable to anyone, but for practical and safety reasons the traditional way was and still is to hunt moose in groups. I know that OFAH also supports groups for moose hunting as I read in one of the OOD magazines articles.

IMO the old system should be brought back, perhaps with some tags reserved for individuals based on how may years applying - kind of like a hybrid system of the old and new systems. Also, I agree you cant have "mega" groups, so the group size should also be limited somehow.

What we should be worrying the most about is the dwindling moose populations as that is the limiting factor first and foremost.

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Originally Posted by Ahuntr300

It's funny really that I now see a lot of complaining about this new system where before everyone thought it was better than sliced bread and you got your head bitten off if one criticized it LOL.

A lot of people wanted and were so excited for this new system as they said that the prior one was biased in favour of groups as Individuals found it hard to get a tag. Now that those individuals got that out of their system and got their coveted tag, they are now finding that they have to wait a lifetime for another tag and go moose hunting, and now the complaining starts again. The only way for these folks that want to hunt moose now is to join a group.

I believe the old system worked fine as most people hunt moose in groups - that has not changed. Like or not, "ghost" hunters or whatever you call them, are legitimate licensed hunters and IMO they can do what they want with the license they legally buy. There is definitely a beauty about being a lone wolf hunter, not being accountable to anyone, but for practical and safety reasons the traditional way was and still is to hunt moose in groups. I know that OFAH also supports groups for moose hunting as I read in one of the OOD magazines articles.

IMO the old system should be brought back, perhaps with some tags reserved for individuals based on how may years applying - kind of like a hybrid system of the old and new systems. Also, I agree you cant have "mega" groups, so the group size should also be limited somehow.

What we should be worrying the most about is the dwindling moose populations as that is the limiting factor first and foremost.

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Agree fully with your last statement.

I for one still like the new system. The old system was extremely biased to large groups. Its not so much individuals, its the 2-5 group size that could never get a tag. I have a great cottage and spot to moose hunt. I have a group of 5 guys that I hunt with every year for deer, now we actually have a chance at getting a tag to moose hunt.

You can still hunt in a group, as long as an individual in your group gets a tag. I don't see the issue. Its just the large groups that always used to get tags don't like the new system because now its fair for everyone. I get it, having a system that works in your favour is good for you, but its sure isn't fair. Large groups have had the preferential treatment for many years, now at least the system is fair. People just want it adjusted to me better for them.

IMO, the new system will be fine once they find a way to allocate all of the tags fairly. Unfortunately tags will still be scarce in many units but that would be a fact no matter what system was in play.