Forcillo , Not guilty ,sort of

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

I don't need to google public trust. Let's try not to be patronizing.

I've voiced an opinion that differs from yours and its one that is supportive of our police.

I'm done with this topic.

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Good post !!! I've read all the posts here, and elsewhere. It's good to see the peanut gallery is alive and well. Unless you have faced a drug crazed individual with a knife, you have no business second guessing the officer. I can say that the first thing that happens, is your arse slams shut. The next is, your training automatically kicks in. Only he knows what was going through his mind.
Its typical that everyone can disect over the course of months, what the officer did and why. He had the matter of seconds to make a decision. He didn't have the luxury of videos, witness statements, pathology reports etc etc....
Did he overreact, not likely in the first instance. Was he justified in shooting again once Yatim was down, maybe... if in his mind, Yatim was getting up. He had no way of knowing how many rounds hit, or their effectiveness. That info only came from the PM.
A lot has been posted that Yatim didn't rush out of the car, some by a couple of posters who should know better. In edged weapon confrontation, critical distance is important. The officer was well within critical distance. Had Yatim rushed out at the officer, he could have very well killed or critically injured the officer, even after being shot. This concept forms part of their training. It's not like the movies......people don't fly backwards and drop once shot.
This is far from over. There will be an appeal......

Big jack, the public trust is important, for good reasons. . You can think Im arrogant all you like, but it starts there ( the 'PT") it is the overriding concern/issue. Perhaps you can take Chief Saunders lead. Do you think he doesn't support leo? Whether we support leo or not immaterial, it's that important.

"There can be no legitimacy without accountability"
"There powers police officers have come with enormous responsilibilty".

http://globalnews.ca/video/2475885/m...accountability

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He had the matter of seconds to make a decision.

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The SIU disagree's obviously...They laid the charges. Why does the SIU exist Rick? Oh, that's right civilian oversight. Not a police state or not police such as yourself deciding what is/isnt over the line.
The greater public strongly disagree's. Be that as it may, the jury found it was justified.

John Tory on "the eroded PT"
http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hal...lic-trust.html

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Originally Posted by JBen

Big jack, the public trust is important, for good reasons. . You can think Im arrogant all you like, but it starts there ( the 'PT") it is the overriding concern/issue. Perhaps you can take Chief Saunders lead. Do you think he doesn't support leo? Whether we support leo or not immaterial, it's that important.

"There can be no legitimacy without accountability"
"There powers police officers have come with enormous responsilibilty".

http://globalnews.ca/video/2475885/m...accountability


The SIU disagree's obviously...They laid the charges. Why does the SIU exist Rick? Oh, that's right civilian oversight. Not a police state or not police such as yourself deciding what is/isnt over the line.
The greater public strongly disagree's. Be that as it may, the jury found it was justified.

John Tory on "the eroded PT"
http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hal...lic-trust.html

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Im more familiar with SIU than most......they have not had a single conviction stand. I wonder why ????? At no time did I decide what was over the line. The courts and due process will decide that. You should get off your lofty soapbox until you have faced a situation more dangerous than a paper cut !!!

Well that can cut both ways.
If we listen to a growing segment of the public, they think leo gets away with murder and the system still favours them or that they protect their own.

If we listen to friends they think the SIU is out to get them and in many cases inept.Care to deny?

At the end of the day your just an armchair quarterback in this as well...unless you were there.... Were you? Curious have you ever drawn and shot a crazed knife wielding at 5-15 feet? Im thinking no, you haven't either.

So save your weak "insults", and yes Rick I have faced people....
As did my grandfather (bullit in the face...can you say that much)...
As did my Uncle (OPP),
As did my youngest uncle (Under cover with the RCMP)
As did my god father (undercover with CSIS)....

My stance is from the PT, balancing. Seems your civilian overseers ( be they the SIU, Mayors like John Tory etc) who you seem to resent "get it", as does Chief Saunders and more.

Oh, and I guess you've forgotten how many times Ive defended leo (am thinking a couple high profile shootings south of the border) where really specifics weren't "all" that different. Excepts perhaps how much of a threat the dead person may or may not have been. In those cases the "guy" wasnt contained or inside a structure he'd have to exit out of.

A guy, whether he is jacked or not, who is contained within an empty streetcar isn't all that much of a threat. Not to the public, and while he may still represent a threat to those attending. I seem to recall saying to things here to some who thought they could have rushed him..He would first need to make a rush for the stairs/door, with atleast 4-6 guns pointed at him....And that didn't happen.

They had all the time in the world...

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Originally Posted by JBen

Well that can cut both ways.
If we listen to a growing segment of the public, they think leo gets away with murder and the system still favours them or that they protect their own.

If we listen to friends they think the SIU is out to get them and in many cases inept.Care to deny?

At the end of the day your just an armchair quarterback in this as well...unless you were there.... Were you? Curious have you ever drawn and shot a crazed knife wielding at 5-15 feet? Im thinking no, you haven't either.

So save your weak "insults", and yes Rick I have faced people....
As did my grandfather (bullit in the face...can you say that much)...
As did my Uncle (OPP),
As did my youngest uncle (Under cover with the RCMP)
As did my god father (undercover with CSIS)....

My stance is from the PT, balancing. Seems your civilian overseers ( be they the SIU, Mayors like John Tory etc) who you seem to resent "get it", as does Chief Saunders and more.

Oh, and I guess you've forgotten how many times Ive defended leo (am thinking a couple high profile shootings south of the border) where really specifics weren't "all" that different. Excepts perhaps how much of a threat the dead person may or may not have been. In those cases the "guy" wasnt contained or inside a structure he'd have to exit out of.

A guy, whether he is jacked or not, who is contained within an empty streetcar isn't all that much of a threat. Not to the public, and while he may still represent a threat to those attending. I seem to recall saying to things here to some who thought they could have rushed him..He would first need to make a rush for the stairs/door, with atleast 4-6 guns pointed at him....And that didn't happen.

They had all the time in the world...

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Who gives a rats arse about what your family has done. That does not qualify you in the least ! And yes, I have been in a similar situation, so I have a bit more insight into what MAY have been going through the officer's mind. As far as your assertion of armchair quarterbacking, I have yet to give an opinion on what the officer did or should have done, unlike you. How wonderful the view must be from your lofty perch !!!!

My soapbox as you call it is no different than Chief Saunders. deal with it.

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Speaking to reporters shortly after the verdict was announced Monday, Toronto Police Chief Mark Saunders hailed the verdict as an important step in showing police accountability to the public

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My family should give you a clue as to where my sympathies lie or has that gone over your head. But unlike you apparently I get how important the PT is. And what may or may not have been going through his head, Im not sure has much bearing. By that I mean we all know what is going through a husbands mind when he catches his wife in bed......or we all know whats going through some persons mind when they find an intruder in their house.

Does it make killing them right?
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Where was his body lying Rick.
Inside the street car?
On the steps?
on the pavement?

As you said, real life isn't hollywood and bullits don't blow people back. Im thinking if he was rushing Forcilo and on his way down, momentum would have resulted in the body ending up on the pavement?
Funny that.


Was there any need for Forcillo get in that tight and start screaming in his face to begin with? I think most rational people might think, no he could have stayed back a few more feet. Can you give with your expertise a reason to escalate it at that point? Doesn't training teach you to deescalate?

Again, in the end the jury decided he was justified. Just as we, might think they get it wrong when someone we think is guilty of murder gets acquitted.....

Call it a soapbox all you like. The public (meaning us) has every right to question this. Some will think theres no reason/justification, some will. Thats life. I might also point out, that from reading through those who seem to have problems with others thoughts on the matter are those who think anyone who thinks he was in the wrong, are in the wrong.

Don't care if you think he was justified.
Surprised you at the least don't understand how important the PT is. That soap box you keep referring to, and that is to me, the most important aspect in all of this.

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As did my grandfather (bullit in the face...can you say that much)...
As did my Uncle (OPP),
As did my youngest uncle (Under cover with the RCMP)
As did my god father (undercover with CSIS)....

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All of this is irrelevant to the topic being discussed, , you have done this many times before , bring up your family to try and enhance yourself and your knowledge of the topics being discussed.

I think you missed the part where I said..where do you think my sympathies lie?

With respect to the other aspect, yeah I have more than just a little familiarity with it. And the fact Chief Saunders is, (and others) echoing the same things...Perhaps if others hadn't crawled up on their "soap box" and taken so much issue with it.

/shrug

Great explanation for one of Torontos top lawyers. His interpretation is pretty clear.

http://www.bttoronto.ca/videos/4721974578001/

WARNING GRAPHIC POLICE SHOOTING

https://www.instagram.com/p/BApXDElvKAg/

This shows you how a person being shot can cover distance. Goes back to what someone else said about that 21ft rule. Different circumstances for sure but it goes to show that bullets aren't magic like the movies.

So during my commutes I've been listening to the CBC's reporting and analysis of this story. The dialogue is squarely focused on how poorly the police handle people with mental issues. But Sammy Yatin had no history of mental illness and his family is adamant that he was a mentally healthy and non-violent person.

We should be having a debate about how police handle violent people. Instead this has turned into a debate about how police should handle "people in crisis".

Some relatives of mine recently moved to get away from the "people in crisis" who lived next door, more commonly referred to as a crack house.