Dominion Arms Outlaw vs Norinco JW-2000

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Originally Posted by Fox

You can hunt with anything, don't think that the guys in the 1800s did not take animals with their coach guns, the swing in the bush would be beautiful for fast moving bunnies and grouse.

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You can hunt with a short barrel like that, sure. But it's not a great choice. From a safety standpoint, short barrels are undesirable for upland hunting in cover. To understand why, hold the shotgun at port arms, then bring it in to your chest as if you'd fallen on it. Note where the muzzle is, relative to your own head. Consider that you really have little control over how you fall. Short barrels make it all too easy to shoot yourself; consider that the only casualty of the October Crisis shot himself by accident with his SMG on jumping down out of a truck. 26" barrels on a break gun (22" or so on a pump) are about as short as I'd go in cover where I'm all too likely to trip and fall.

The idea that a short gun is better in bush is overrated. I hunted for several seasons with a 28" BPS (equivalent to a 34" break gun) and can count on one hand the number of times my swing was stopped by a branch. And the cover I hunt in is obscene.

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Originally Posted by welsh

You can hunt with a short barrel like that, sure. But it's not a great choice. From a safety standpoint, short barrels are undesirable for upland hunting in cover. To understand why, hold the shotgun at port arms, then bring it in to your chest as if you'd fallen on it. Note where the muzzle is, relative to your own head. Consider that you really have little control over how you fall. Short barrels make it all too easy to shoot yourself; consider that the only casualty of the October Crisis shot himself by accident with his SMG on jumping down out of a truck. 26" barrels on a break gun (22" or so on a pump) are about as short as I'd go in cover where I'm all too likely to trip and fall.

The idea that a short gun is better in bush is overrated. I hunted for several seasons with a 28" BPS (equivalent to a 34" break gun) and can count on one hand the number of times my swing was stopped by a branch. And the cover I hunt in is obscene.

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Short barrels make it easy to shoot yourself? You have got to be kidding me, we are not talking a 6" shotgun barrel here, we are talking a coach gun.

CONTROL THE MUZZLE!!!!

Do you not teach this as the #1 rule? Never point the gun at anything you don't intend to shoot, including yourself in a fall. I have slid down a slick moss covered ridge in Eastern Ontario deer hunting, gun was on safe and 2 hands on it, rode down on my back holding on to the gun.

How you fall and shoot yourself when you do the following in beyond me.

1. Control the muzzle
2. Keep your finger out of the trigger guard
3. Keep the gun on safe until you intend to shoot

The casualty of the October crises jumped down out of a truck with a loaded firearm with some ability to make that firearm fire.

Next time you are on the range take your shotgun, it, put it on fire and while unloaded smack it into the ground, unless you hit the trigger or your firearm is faulty it will not fire.


I started out with a 23" barrel on an 870, it was too long in many rabbit hunting situations, I would not even call what I hunt in "obscene", I hunt in tag alders, cedars, thick spruce.

Nothing at all wrong with a short barrel and nothing inherently unsafe with any gun with any barrel length, the safety lies with the user, period.

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Originally Posted by Fox

Never point the gun at anything you don't intend to shoot, including yourself in a fall.

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The interesting thing about falling is that you are not in control of your body while you do it. If you were in control of your body, you would not be falling. And when you are not in control of your body, you are not in control of the muzzle, although many people fondly believe that they are.

Accidents happen. Only fools believe accidents can never happen to them.

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Originally Posted by welsh

The interesting thing about falling is that you are not in control of your body while you do it. If you were in control of your body, you would not be falling. And when you are not in control of your body, you are not in control of the muzzle, although many people fondly believe that they are.

Accidents happen. Only fools believe accidents can never happen to them.

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I am surprised an LEO has ever lived to retirement then, running with a handgun, much worse than scissors.

Please go out to the range and with your unloaded but cocked firearm smack it on the ground, just try it.

You have to be in control in every situation, if you are going down an iffy slope it is up to you to unload that firearm so that nothing can happen. You talk about accidents, shooting yourself or someone else is not an accident it is negligence. You have in your hands something that can kill, it is not something to be considered lightly.

I have no clue how you suggest that a trip will cause the gun to twist in your hands, point back at you and go off when contacting the ground. Many things there are not right.

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Originally Posted by Fox

Please go out to the range and with your unloaded but cocked firearm smack it on the ground, just try it.

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This amounts to arguing that it doesn't matter what you point your muzzles at, because the gun won't fire anyway. If you believe that, you may want to review that whole safety course thing.

Here's one for you: load your coach gun, keep your finger off the trigger, and look down the muzzle while pounding the butt against the ground.

No? Rather not try that one?

Now try this experiment, when you're done with the first: you carry your shotgun, while a friend sneaks up and trips you by surprise. Then please give me a list of everything your barrel swept as you went down -- because you were in control of it, right?

No; you did not have control of that muzzle. The fall did.

For bonus points, do that one with a loaded shotgun -- it's perfectly safe to do that, right? Because your finger is off the trigger and the gun can't possibly fire!

Here's your third experiment. Hold the shotgun at the port, as you would while hunting. Now rotate it so that it is vertical, and pull it in to your chest, as if you had fallen on it. Where are the muzzles of your 20" barrels?

Directly in front of your face. Very easy for those to end up under your chin.

It's not complicated.