Obscene amounts of money

I've missed you Werner.
Regardless of the topic, there are always those on the extremes, those in the middle. There are those who get fixated on one aspect ( like the 1%) or tax Corporations, or it's all the fault of taxation. When few topics are ever simple or straightforward. Few seem to be capable of trying to look at all aspects....

With respect to income taxes.
Remember what the medians are. 50% of the population does not gross $45,000. 50% of households do not gross $87,000.

And keep in mind, how taxes like gas or carbon or HST are blind to incomes. So a person that grosses say $50,000 and has maybe $15,000 in disposable income. Spends $4,000 on fuel. $2,000 of which is tax.
$2,000 of $50,000 = ??%
$2,000 of $100,000 = ??%

how many people gross 50,000. Almost half the population or 10 million.
How many people gross $100,000. About 10% so call it 2 million.
10,000,000,00 x $2,000
2,000,000 x $2,000

Sorry....... but no different than those who are fixated, on the evils of unions. A company is in it for the shareholders, no one else. A union is in it for their members, no one else. If one is selfish, so is the other.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

Sorry....... but no different than those who are fixated, on the evils of unions. A company is in it for the shareholders, no one else. A union is in it for their members, no one else. If one is selfish, so is the other.

---

A union is in it for the union. They only do enough for the members to maintain their leadership. About the same as politicians and the believe that hey might be "in it for the electorate". Ha Ha Ha.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

Ontario Liberals chased away the companies who could not afford to pay janitors $65/hr due to the unions. The unions killed themselves in this province, the Liberals helped them along.

---

That was part of , but the Unions usually look at basing the salary demands on the cost of living of the workers. And Ontario is very expensive. But your right, like Nestle's in Winchester was closed largely because of the cost of labour demands made by the unions.

The a bigger part was Hydro rates, under the Liberal Government they soared...that drove many businesses away.

Correct W.R. Everyone wants to keep their job. I do not understand why people get so upset,, when a union does what it is supposed to do for it's members. That's why we put them there. They are not there to please anyone, but their members. If they do not get better, conditions, pay, pensions, for the members they will be replaced. Just like a CEO who is expected to increase shareholders profits, continually, or they will be replaced. To blame the ills of our economy, just on unions is nonsense. Just ask those very poor folks, in the 'right to work' states how that worked out. The right to be a peon, and make minimum wage ...forever...... Think 'Norma Rea'...

Although the union is a big part of the problem, the province is also responsible, not just with the hydro, but also with other things:
- increasing the minimum wage - while I think people deserve to be paid a living wage, the province needs to decide which is worse - low paying jobs or no jobs?
- hidden payroll taxes
- requirements for training certifications

The big plywood plant in Pembroke (Commonwealth) is shut down permanently now because of a strike over wages. Not only were the manufacturing jobs lost but also a bunch of forestry jobs upstream that provided timber to the mill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

I do not understand why people get so upset,, when a union does what it is supposed to do for it's members. That's why we put them there.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by werner.reiche

The big plywood plant in Pembroke (Commonwealth) is shut down permanently now because of a strike over wages. Not only were the manufacturing jobs lost but also a bunch of forestry jobs upstream that provided timber to the mill.

---

That's what happened to Hershey's and Stanley in Smiths Fall and Black and Decker in Brockville. All settled strikes, then packed up and moved south. I understand it's the same with 3M in Brockville but I also heard it was the Hydro rates as a big part of moving production.

Some of these big Unions seem to be out of touch since FreeTrade.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikePal

That was part of , but the Unions usually look at basing the salary demands on the cost of living of the workers. And Ontario is very expensive. But your right, like Nestle's in Winchester was closed largely because of the cost of labour demands made by the unions.

The a bigger part was Hydro rates, under the Liberal Government they soared...that drove many businesses away.

---

No Mike, this goes way back, before the 15 years of Liberal spending. The automotive union was well on their way to pushing out manufacturing in Ontario, the hydro rates were a problem recently but that was only the last nail of many in the coffins. The unions were not working towards equivalent salaries or living wages, the money that employees were getting simply based on the amount of time they were there was insane. I am talking about the plants in Oshawa mainly, I have many family members who worked in and around the plants there, they all saw the writing on the wall and moved to non-unionized places that were more diverse so that they could build up a skill set that would be required once the assembly plants closed down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

Correct W.R. Everyone wants to keep their job. I do not understand why people get so upset,, when a union does what it is supposed to do for it's members. That's why we put them there. They are not there to please anyone, but their members. If they do not get better, conditions, pay, pensions, for the members they will be replaced. Just like a CEO who is expected to increase shareholders profits, continually, or they will be replaced. To blame the ills of our economy, just on unions is nonsense. Just ask those very poor folks, in the 'right to work' states how that worked out. The right to be a peon, and make minimum wage ...forever...... Think 'Norma Rea'...

---

Unfortunately some of the folks on here would like to take us back to the Winnipeg riots of the old days and strike breakers and Pinkertons gunning down protesters. Working people going cap in hand and paying into the company store.

There is also some truth especially today that Union's are only for union's. My son is in 416 Union and they are hopeless, lazy,
do not answer the phone's and basically do nothing for the member's. So he is frustrated at both the Union's and some of his fellow workers with 30 years on who feel they do not need to work very hard and complaint and play the union card when they try to discipline them.

There has to be a middle ground between the old ways where the boss always had the upper hand, because basically we are now back at that spot with part time employment for many, no benefits and no pensions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

No Mike, this goes way back, before the 15 years of Liberal spending. The automotive union was well on their way to pushing out manufacturing in Ontario, the hydro rates were a problem recently but that was only the last nail of many in the coffins. The unions were not working towards equivalent salaries or living wages, the money that employees were getting simply based on the amount of time they were there was insane. I am talking about the plants in Oshawa mainly, I have many family members who worked in and around the plants there, they all saw the writing on the wall and moved to non-unionized places that were more diverse so that they could build up a skill set that would be required once the assembly plants closed down.

---

The auto industry is a different problem that what we are seeing today. That failure was 100% union driven. In QC, but similar to Ontario, the union at St Therese played hardball with GM which had just retooled the plant to produce F-bodies (firebirds and camaros) which GM desperately needed. GM caved and the GM manager who had to sign off on the agreement said in a press conference following that that the St. Therese plant will never be retooled again. At the end of the F-Body run, the plant was closed and demolished.