Hospitals in crisis

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

From what I understood how the system worked,most employer group plans have limited coverage up to certain maximums. Once that's reached,the patient is responsible for the balance. The insurance company also gets to dictate which treatments the patient can recieve under the particular plan they have. That effectively gives some corporate bureaucrat the power of who gets what treatment and who doesn't giving them,literally,the power of who lives and who dies. Since my BIL passed,garbage like that is what drove ObamaCare. Even with private health coverage,everything is far from sweetness and light in the US health system, JoePa is eminently more qualified to comment further on that.

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exactly why you need to read the fine print on any insurance policy and make sure you have the coverage you actually need. If not, you get it topped up within that plan or with another plan. That goes for many canadian workplace policies also, you just can't assume your fully covered because you have a plan. Many workplaces have travel insurance, but really look at what they cover before you travel and get a supplemental plan if needed.

Sorry this happened to your family, but it happens more than people realize and its simply because people can't be bothered to read the fine print.

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Originally Posted by huntervinni

If the same were to happen to someone who took a vacation to Canada and they didn't have insurance before arriving here what do you think the bill would be for an emergency hospital visit? I can tell you from experience that its not cheap. Canada/USA or any other country for that matter if you don't have insurance then the price is anything the providers want it to be.....

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I'm not so sure it would be $6000 for a 45 minute visit.

But my key point is, in the US, there is no choice but to pay high insurance rates, to pay for extremely absurd hospital costs.
Let's not beat around the bush, it's WAAAAAY higher in the US for a US citizen ... than a Canadian in Canada. And on top of that, the SYSTEM leaves major gaps in coverage and creates an affordability problem. How many people living in Ontario go broke because of a household illness vs. the USA?

Fundamental problem when a family goes broke because they get sick. That is one of the things I'd argue a government should do ... keep people healthy, and help get them an education. After that ... you've got everything you need to make a decent income.

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Originally Posted by MarkB

I'm not so sure it would be $6000 for a 45 minute visit.

But my key point is, in the US, there is no choice but to pay high insurance rates, to pay for extremely absurd hospital costs.
Let's not beat around the bush, it's WAAAAAY higher in the US for a US citizen ... than a Canadian in Canada. And on top of that, the SYSTEM leaves major gaps in coverage and creates an affordability problem. How many people living in Ontario go broke because of a household illness vs. the USA?

Fundamental problem when a family goes broke because they get sick. That is one of the things I'd argue a government should do ... keep people healthy, and help get them an education. After that ... you've got everything you need to make a decent income.

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I would just add that you can also go overboard. The British National Health Care system was so generous years ago that they actually reimbursed your cab fare for getting to a hospital. When they entered the EU everybody and their Uncle started to obtain health care benefits from the Continent, the whole system is now in a freefall.

The cost from 1949 to 2019 went up by 12 fold and now stands at $261,775.238 Billion or 156 billion British pounds.

About 30p out of every pound is spent on health care costs.

I think a deductible of some sort will be needed to prevent some of the frivolous visits some folks engage in here to help prevent a similar disaster happening.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypi...h=192189893099

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Originally Posted by MarkB

I'm not so sure it would be $6000 for a 45 minute visit.

But my key point is, in the US, there is no choice but to pay high insurance rates, to pay for extremely absurd hospital costs.
Let's not beat around the bush, it's WAAAAAY higher in the US for a US citizen ... than a Canadian in Canada. And on top of that, the SYSTEM leaves major gaps in coverage and creates an affordability problem. How many people living in Ontario go broke because of a household illness vs. the USA?

Fundamental problem when a family goes broke because they get sick. That is one of the things I'd argue a government should do ... keep people healthy, and help get them an education. After that ... you've got everything you need to make a decent income.

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Sorry MarkB but I beg to differ. The issue is that if Americans don't have healthcare insurance through their employer, the chances of them purchasing their own personal insurance is very low. In Canada, as I'm sure you know, we pay for Healthcare through taxes and we don't think about it much because most people think its free. Almost 40% of every tax dollar goes to fund healthcare in Ontario.......keeping it to simple math, a person earning $100,000 is gonna lose 50% of that to taxes which is $50,000 x 40% = $20,000. Do you have any idea what sort of Health insurance you can purchase in the USA for $20,000 a year?

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

From what I understood how the system worked,most employer group plans have limited coverage up to certain maximums. Once that's reached,the patient is responsible for the balance. The insurance company also gets to dictate which treatments the patient can recieve under the particular plan they have. That effectively gives some corporate bureaucrat the power of who gets what treatment and who doesn't giving them,literally,the power of who lives and who dies. Since my BIL passed,garbage like that is what drove ObamaCare. Even with private health coverage,everything is far from sweetness and light in the US health system, JoePa is eminently more qualified to comment further on that.

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Employers in the US have the ability to choose the coverage they want to give their employees as long as it doesn't go below a certain threshold. It could be that your BIL plan was on the low side, which is unfortunate and allowed in the US but like FishHog pointed out, there are ways to buy top up coverage to make sure you are insured properly.

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Originally Posted by huntervinni

.......keeping it to simple math, a person earning $100,000 is gonna lose 50% of that to taxes which is $50,000 x 40% = $20,000.

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Your right...Ontario plans to spend $186.1 billion this year, of which $69.8 billion is earmarked for health-care expenses..which is about 38% ...but there is also the Transfer payments (also your taxes) to the province from the Feds...last year that was an additional $16.7 Billion.

And they promised to increase that going forward....yes when people say we have "FREE' health care I cringe..:)

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Originally Posted by huntervinni

Sorry MarkB but I beg to differ. The issue is that if Americans don't have healthcare insurance through their employer, the chances of them purchasing their own personal insurance is very low. In Canada, as I'm sure you know, we pay for Healthcare through taxes and we don't think about it much because most people think its free. Almost 40% of every tax dollar goes to fund healthcare in Ontario.......keeping it to simple math, a person earning $100,000 is gonna lose 50% of that to taxes which is $50,000 x 40% = $20,000. Do you have any idea what sort of Health insurance you can purchase in the USA for $20,000 a year?

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What is the average income in Canada? What percent of the total population makes over $100k?

Income tax on $100k salary is $27k in Ontario (and that's if you don't put any of it into a PP and RRSP ... which many do). Are you adding other taxes like HST, Carbon Tax, Property Tax? ... I still don't see how you get to $50k, even with all that.

What I'll give you is HST ... so let's say a person nets $73k after income tax ... not all of it is spent and subject to HST (most goes to mortgage and groceries). I'd say maybe $25k is spent on things that attract 13% HST ... so perhaps another $3k in taxes. Property tax goes to municipality, not much going to health care, if any. Carbon tax should not be going to health. However, let's double that to account for sin taxes and gas tax ... so let's say $6k of additional taxes gathered that could be directed to health care.

So ... $33k in income and HST taxes on a $100k salary ... and 38.7% of that goes to health care, so $12,800 a year. So, that's about $1k a month.

But here's the crux ... that's for someone making $100k a year. Average income per person in Ontario is actually $52k (based on inflation applied to the 2019 census stats). So that income tax just got cut to $11k per year ... let's say they splurge as much as the person making $100k, and spend another $6k in HST and sin taxes ... $17k a year ... multiple 38.7% to that and you have .... drum roll please ... $6,600 per year ... or $550 a month ... and I'm willing to bet in the USA it's the same if not more (USD 433 per month).

And with that USD 433 a month EVERYONE gets health care. Case closed.

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Originally Posted by huntervinni

Sorry MarkB but I beg to differ. The issue is that if Americans don't have healthcare insurance through their employer, the chances of them purchasing their own personal insurance is very low. In Canada, as I'm sure you know, we pay for Healthcare through taxes and we don't think about it much because most people think its free. Almost 40% of every tax dollar goes to fund healthcare in Ontario.......keeping it to simple math, a person earning $100,000 is gonna lose 50% of that to taxes which is $50,000 x 40% = $20,000. Do you have any idea what sort of Health insurance you can purchase in the USA for $20,000 a year?

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MarkB is correct in pointing out the math error. The 40% you are referring to should only be applied to portion of your overall tax bill that is provincial in nature plus transfer payments. You are correct in stating the marginal tax rate is 50% more or less overall as it includes federal and provincial tax, CPP, EI, HST and a multitude of other hidden taxes on products and services. The 40% though can only be applied to the provincial portion which is probably around 40% of the overall take. So the amount of tax you pay towards provincial health care would be 40% of 40% of 50% of 100K or 0.4x0.4x0.5x100K = $8,000 towards health care if you earn 100K.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Your right...Ontario plans to spend $186.1 billion this year, of which $69.8 billion is earmarked for health-care expenses..Transfer payments (also your taxes) to the province from the Feds...last year that was an additional $16.7 Billion.


And they promised to increase that going forward....yes when people say we have "FREE' health care I cringe..:)

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A better way to look at it is take the total cost of the system per year and divide by the population. That will yield the cost per person if you want to cover everybody and not just yourself. Unfortunately in a tax based system the rich always subsidize the poor and the non-earners such as children - that is the only way to cover everybody. If MP's number are correct that means the cost per person is roughly (69.8+16.7)B/15M = about $5,800 per person per year or about $4500 USD per person per year. That is the number that should be used to determine what you could get in the States for comparison purposes.

I am the sole earner in my household and fully support 4 kids, 1 grandchild and my wife. Cost to cover 7 people to our level in the States would probably be higher but i could be wrong.

Everyone likes to knock the US health care system and highlight the amount of people with no coverage / low coverage, and sure those numbers may look bad, but once you consider their population of over 300 million it becomes clear the majority of citizens have great health care coverage.... I know quite a few people who got sick of waiting for surgery in Canada that crossed the border to pay for a surgery in the US. The US surgery was done with better technology, quicker recover, less intrusive operations on almost every example I heard. (the people I know went there for knees, hips, etc)

When you realize that even a barista at Starbucks gets good health care coverage over there you realize how flawed our sytem is and perhaps a public/private system in Canada would be a benefit for all citizens involved. (If im willing to pay for a knee replacement, MRI, etc, at a private clinic here in Canada lets say, then that takes me out of the que here in Canada and benefits YOU as well and shortens your wait time for a public MRI or knee replacement)

With the way things are going we need to think outside the box for solutions and cant rely on the government fools like we have for so long

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Originally Posted by Species8472

So the amount of tax you pay towards provincial health care would be 40% of 40% of 50% of 100K or 0.4x0.4x0.5x100K = $8,000 towards health care if you earn 100K.

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And if we apply the actual (or close to based on my estimate) average income of a person in Ontario of around $52k ... that leaves a lot less tax going towards health care per tax payer ... and as you point out, similar in my household ... I support 4 other people (and many other non-tax payers in general) ... so my tax contribution to health care is a bargain in my eyes ... and is helping to keep people healthy and financially stable (helping).