Alternative to Force Fetch

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Originally Posted by BurlyGirl

I also suggest a reread of Labber's post to anyone just getting to this thread. It's well put.

Jim, I've drawn attention to a sentence above. Putting down the best 'who' ? The best North American field trial dogs? Okay. But the best....hunting dogs? Retrievers that never see a trial or test? A dog only gets titles because the person who owns the dog filled out an entry form, paid an entry fee and did the work at a trial or test. Just because a dog doesn't have a title attached to its name doesn't mean it was a crappy dog. It does mean the person who owned it either couldn't pass a test/trial or wouldn't enter one in the first place for various reasons (not interested being the main one in my mind). In your world, titles mean everything and 200 yard marks are regular. Zippy, fast and flashy dogs are also part of the regular field trial package. Do they do the work you teach them? Absolutely. But the *average* hunter who isn't interested in trials or testing wants a dog with good manners, a calmer disposition, a dog that won't tip the canoe when it launches out of it is another good trait, etc etc. To field trialers, there is nothing greater than a dog with lots of style and speed, and that's great for a field trialer. I'm not putting that kind of dog down. But it's not what everyone wants.

Back to Labber's comment: not every dog has to be force fetched. It has its definite pros -- there is recourse for a handler to use when a dog decided he doesn't want to play by the handler's rules. Absolutely, I agree. But as Labber said, if the owner is happy with the dog bringing the bird back to his feet most of the time, good enough....then FF isn't the end all and be all for all. For anyone competitive in the dog sports, I imagine FF is the best choice to get a consistent retriever. If you're a weekend hunter and you're not shooting ducks at 200 yards, chances are if you have a dog who is keen to retrieve, those alternatives to FF may work just fine.

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Hey Alana I know you have alot more experience and knowledge than most, so I hope you don't mind me jumping on my usual FT dog defense bandwagon. The words that I bolded above kinda rub me the wrong way. It is common opinion that the FT lines are wild & crazy dogs not suited for hunters. Without a doubt, there are some, & I have had them. I have also had and have now, a well bred FT dog that is as laid back in the house, and steady and quiet while hunting, as a person could want.
On the other hand, my first retriever was bought from show/WC x Show WCX parents. Pretty good in the house, but totally uncontrollable in the duck blind. Whining and antsy like nothing I've ever seen. What hunters get when they avoid FT bred dogs is all the brains, and desire that makes teaching them easier, and mistakes more forgiving. The dogs that do not have this strong pedigree end up having these qualities washed out quickly. In as early as 2 generations the effects can be seen. This isnt to say that you can't have a great dog with tons of desire with a weak pedigree. I've had one with Honcho 4 generations back that was a great hunting dog, intense & smart. But her brother and sisters were dumb as a bag of hammers. That is the problem. The weaker the pedigree, the fewer good ones in the litter. Which one will YOU feed for the next 12 years?
The smart ones don't cost anymore than the dumb ones. (usually less)
That's the choice I learned to make.....the hard way.
BTW, that WCX-WC bred dog was rehomed to a very good Dr's sofa in Hamilton.
8 years later & many $$$$ in meds for allergies that developed, the dog was put down when the 2nd cruciate went.

So my point is that the Field bred Retrievers are probably a safer bet than the show class of labs on all levels.

Alana, I know that you are committed to the dogs as much as anyone, and you work hard for clubs & dogs.
I would like to see this tired old theory about crazy FT dogs kept in perspective.

Interesting enough when i was at a field trial a couple of weeks ago for spaniels I saw a mixed bag. The one pro I was interested in had at least four Springers he was competing with that i had been researching his field bloodlines for the last three years. All his dogs were completely out of control and dragged him to the line. They had tons of desire and did perform extremely well but not leashed trained from what i could see. My favourite dogs were also out of field lines that have been developed by my mentor for the last forty five years. They were very calm,leashed trained,had brains and also performed extremely well if not better than the other. Breeding programs play a huge role and take many years to produce quality dogs. I have also seen this with Labrador Retriever with SOME show lines and witnessed these lines perform very well with the weekend warrior hunter. They also had brains were very well mannered but could not compete at a field trial level but that was not what the owner wanted.

You have to remember too YD, that some old school fellas in the spaniel game prefer to not introduce a leash to their dogs in worries of slowing them down. A very big contrast to the retriever world where Heel and control are instilled early on. To put this into perspective - last fall I was hunting over my pup (if you can call it that - the focus was on him and not the hunt). His breeder kept a female littermate of Jake's and while I was sending him pics of Jake with grouse he had flushed and retrieved he said his sister hadn't even had a leash on yet (and this was at 10-12 months old). Just goes to show there is more than one way to skin a cat.

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Originally Posted by Labber

Hey Alana I know you have alot more experience and knowledge than most, so I hope you don't mind me jumping on my usual FT dog defense bandwagon. The words that I bolded above kinda rub me the wrong way. It is common opinion that the FT lines are wild & crazy dogs not suited for hunters. Without a doubt, there are some, & I have had them. I have also had and have now, a well bred FT dog that is as laid back in the house, and steady and quiet while hunting, as a person could want.
On the other hand, my first retriever was bought from show/WC x Show WCX parents. Pretty good in the house, but totally uncontrollable in the duck blind. Whining and antsy like nothing I've ever seen. What hunters get when they avoid FT bred dogs is all the brains, and desire that makes teaching them easier, and mistakes more forgiving. The dogs that do not have this strong pedigree end up having these qualities washed out quickly. In as early as 2 generations the effects can be seen. This isnt to say that you can't have a great dog with tons of desire with a weak pedigree. I've had one with Honcho 4 generations back that was a great hunting dog, intense & smart. But her brother and sisters were dumb as a bag of hammers. That is the problem. The weaker the pedigree, the fewer good ones in the litter. Which one will YOU feed for the next 12 years?
The smart ones don't cost anymore than the dumb ones. (usually less)
That's the choice I learned to make.....the hard way.
BTW, that WCX-WC bred dog was rehomed to a very good Dr's sofa in Hamilton.
8 years later & many $$$$ in meds for allergies that developed, the dog was put down when the 2nd cruciate went.

So my point is that the Field bred Retrievers are probably a safer bet than the show class of labs on all levels.

Alana, I know that you are committed to the dogs as much as anyone, and you work hard for clubs & dogs.
I would like to see this tired old theory about crazy FT dogs kept in perspective.

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A lot more experience and knowledge than most? Heck, when I'm 80 or so, I hope to still be learning new things and expanding my knowledge base. Always the student. I've got big mountains of knowledge to climb and learn from.

As much as you may feel it's a 'tired old theory about crazy FT dogs', I get weary of hearing that FT's are the only way to measure success, that only the titles in front of the dog's name mean something, etc etc. If the words I used rubbed you the wrong way, it wasn't my intention. But I read a lot that rubs me the wrong way, or at least makes me perk up my ears and think, "what was that? Please specify where this is going". As Cass just said in the post above mine, there's more than one way to skin a cat. My old girl Burly is a perfect example of that. My two dogs prior to her, and the four dogs I ran in competitive obedience prior to her, all were what I love to see in a typical labrador -- eager to learn, aiming to please, lots of mental and physical energy to keep up, and lots 'a go. Burly thinks a LOT and tends to overthink things. If 9 dogs will fall off the line to the left, she'll be the one to go right. I had to relearn how to train a dog when I started working with her. She has never been through an entire FF program. If I had tried it, I'm sure I would have had a dog I could no longer move forward with. That's just not how she learns. So to stay on topic, she would have had an "alternative to Force Fetch" learning curve, and if you've ever seen her work, there is absolutely nothing wrong with her fetch or hold. Her pick-up is immediate - she doesn't fritter around with the bird, she finds it, it's in her mouth and she's returning. There is not a mark on ANY bird that she picks up, and she retrieves geese despite her short little legs and she doesn't quit the retrieve until that big bird is in my hands or my dad's. Again to stay on topic, the young one I have now came to me at a year and a half. She's from, as field trialers would call it, a 'strictly show' pedigree. I look forward to our first hunt at Hullett together (this thought gives me the warm fuzzies). She learns like my first ones did and training her is something I find exciting to do. I get tired of the 'show lines won't do the job' theory, and I'd like it to be kept in perspective as well.

As for your concern about the wild and crazy field trial theory, I'm aware there are field trial dogs out there with temperaments that I would probably like to have in the house or canoe with me. I just feel like if you don't know the pedigree and aren't familiar with lines (no matter what direction the lines go in), you as the new puppy owner may not be prepared for what you're getting. As far as ones from field trial lines being a safer bet, you're saying that from a level of experience that can DO ENOUGH with all that dog you'll probably get from that cute little pup. Let's call a spade a spade here: you're a dedicated and incredible amateur trainer who is training his own dogs from bottom to top, placing in field trials against dogs trained by pros and you WON the National Amateur Field Trial Championship stake in 2011. I'll be the first to say that I admire you and am humbled by you, and that's the solid truth. You have all the trainer's skills it takes to keep a field bred dog thinking, learning, and both mentally and physically fit. I feel like field bred retrievers are a lot of dog for an inexperienced handler (and I am looking at one napping now so I can safely say that from experience -- that field bred lab is a LOT of dog. Wouldn't trade her for the world, but you need to be on your toes with her).

I absolutely love this forum because it gets people from all neck of the woods from different backgrounds together to talk shop for anyone to read. Back to our regularly scheduled programming! How is Sudsee coming along with his fetching young dog?

Awesome well said.

Cass all the spaniel field trialers dogs were all well behaved and leashed trained except this particular pro's dogs. I did talk to a few others about this and most agreed that a spaniel needed to be leashed trained and well behaved. My Elly is by my side walking off leash and also when she is on the leash watching the sky for birds. I understand some folks have a different approach to what works for them. Any of the spaniel training dvd's I have watch along with my mentors advice require leash training and complete obedience. I just find it interesting the different training approach that field trialers use. :)

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Originally Posted by Cass

You have to remember too YD, that some old school fellas in the spaniel game prefer to not introduce a leash to their dogs in worries of slowing them down. A very big contrast to the retriever world where Heel and control are instilled early on. To put this into perspective - last fall I was hunting over my pup (if you can call it that - the focus was on him and not the hunt). His breeder kept a female littermate of Jake's and while I was sending him pics of Jake with grouse he had flushed and retrieved he said his sister hadn't even had a leash on yet (and this was at 10-12 months old). Just goes to show there is more than one way to skin a cat.

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The leash training - I've done that with my ESS as well as teaching him to walk at heel w/o the leash. I can see why some do not like it - if he's not finding birds (or gets tired) he'll stop hunting and walk at heel. He needs to be told to start hunting again - not the end of the world - but not ideal either.

Burlygirl, if you had replied that I was right and you were wrong, I'd have known you were lying. :)
We all have our "pet" peeves. Good on you for defending your position.

Werner Reiche I completely get what you mean. If he gets tired he just hugs my leg until I cast him off again. Still rather have a dog that walks nicely on a leash. He is also a pet and needs to be able to walk down the street with my wife. Burly Girl. Hold training was well on it's way but due to unfortunate circumstances we have put that on hold. I was hoping to breed him but the breeders don't have a mate for him and outside of them I had a no breed contract. I had a family member that was leaving work at a vet clinic and I took the opportunity for a deal on neutering before she left so I have been delayed. I am doing a bit with him but he has to have the cone on for a couple more days so it may be back to the start. Disappointing but that's the way it goes.

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Originally Posted by Labber

Burlygirl, if you had replied that I was right and you were wrong, I'd have known you were lying. :)
We all have our "pet" peeves. Good on you for defending your position.

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.....wait for it....

Regarding the above? You're right ;)