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This is exactly what we ran into. I would say most breeders were mostly show/confirmation focused. He ended up finding a good breeder near Ottawa. Very pleaeed with the female he bought. If I was him I would have bought one of the excellent labs that are available but that wasn't even a consideration, wasn't going to happen. He's a great dog trainer and avid hunter. His dogs are great hunters.Quote:
Originally Posted by krakadawn
Hah-hah! You're going on talking trash about show-line conformation, loss of athletic ability in the field, and yet your avatar shows three beautiful English-style, stocky body, heavy bone show conformation dogs in the image (from what I can see, as the image is fairly small). All three look like tanks to me, precisely the style of dog I've been referring to. I would call these good-looking dogs. You just need to spray paint them black. They'd be log-pushers for sure :). I never saw the smarts in any dog that would listen to a human telling them to crawl over a submerged piece of ragged timber, when it has the option of logically surveying its situation, thinking independently, and simply swimming around the obstacle. I guess if they did this in a trial they'd lose points. Same goes for a dog that does a 200yd retrieve, then swims to the nearest point, and carries it back to you on land. A big no-no if you're trying to get that piece of paper, but a smart dog in my books. I've watched some trials (I admit not a lot), and I must admit it is impressive to see the level of obedience that the dog exhibits when working with the handler. Didn't like (or maybe I just don't understand it's purpose) the presence of all the shocking gear that seemed to be a big part of some trainer's routine. A totally different world from what I want out of my relationship with my dog. If I'm lucky to drop three ducks, he can take his pick of which one he wants to pick up first. I'm happy if he zig-zags his way through the submerged trees during his swim, lest he risk unnecessary injury to his chest and abdomen. Who cares if it takes him 40 seconds longer to bring my bird back? I don't agree with your statement regarding field dogs being the most intelligent dogs in existence. These dogs simply have the right selection of personality/ temperment traits that are conducive to being trained in the way in which you want them to perform eg. a dog willing to be utterly obedient to the handler, total devotion, drive, strong hunt instinct,and yes smart. If you read the stuff on canine intelligence (IQ) testing, the dog that you'd deem unworkable and probably want to strangle while training will prob. have the higher score (ability to think independently, abstract ability, independence confidence, etc) - check out the Dognition stuff. It's actually kind of interesting to test your own dog. Can't say I'd rank a trials/field Lab above any of the therapy/disability dogs (usually conformation/show pedigrees) that I've been around. Same goes for the Enforcement dogs.Quote:
Originally Posted by krakadawn
I think it is kind of foolish to say that an average dog is more intelligent than one that has been selectively bred for generations for trainability
Fenlon to be clear I'm not trash talking at all. Critical assessment is far from that. It appears you may have been to a trial or two from your examples. There is no doubt, trials do not mirror a general days hunting, they go way beyond that. In the beginning that was the purpose but as dogs and people have got better so then have the demands od competition.
The 3 in the avatar are not tanks, guess the small pic doesn't show their solid athletic body confirmation nor does a still pic demonstrate the fluid motion they are capable of.
Just so you know the main source of military dogs in the USA are field trial wash outs, they require basic handling skills as a prerequisite.
Guess I should update the avatar to include my black dog and golden as well...........then perhaps we might agree....Cheers!
No doubt a key quality in many lines is the ability to partner, the want to be part of and yes the underlining ability to take direction, but make no mistake these dogs are not robotic and a great deal of training goes into getting these dogs to that point. Renegades and rebels usually do poorly not only in competitive life but life in general.
Without going into a lot of this, the purpose of going straight is to mark accurately and do a good retrieve. I understand you could care less if your dog lands early and runs the shore, for most hunters this is satisfactory, I agree.
There are numerous cognitive tests that breeders use ,to assess pups and do some early head start programming, that's been around for awhile.
No, what I am saying is "a dog selectively bred for generations for trainability is probably more intelligent than your average dog", just like I wrote in my previous post. I made no mention of show labs whatsoever. Your monitor must add extra words.
EDIT: It appears that the post this was a reply to was removed. Feel free to ignore
Yellow Dog......what happened to your post??
LOL just wanted to see if you were still awake.
It sounded like labs in general including the British labs that was discussed on a previous post. I was waiting for some research document indicating test results that you were going to post. I do have a Mac computer and no it doesn't add extra words.lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Cass
I'm not aware of any formal tests of intelligence that would have compared that of any show background dog with one of FT breeding.
There are some facts though that would confirm certain levels of intelligence:
FT retrievers have been sought out on a regular basis for the dog training program currently in use since Iraq/Aphganistan. I know personally several of these trainers, they are not seeking bench dogs.
Dogs like your springer and labs have had to prove themselves in competition by measuring up to a standard or performing better than the rest. The skill sets are very specific. Tests require memory, tractability, trainability, accurate eye sight, good nose, drive, sagacity and problem solving. Dogs that distinguished themselves have been rewarded with appropriate titles. When searching pedigress many of us look for these whether Canadian, USA or British. Bench dogs have not been tested to that degree.
It's pretty clear where the intelligence lies. That does not say however that there are not other fine cognitive animals that never got the chance to be tested . What is clear though that those who have achieved their titles.....well that's a fact and they have demonstrated those qualities and had them confirmed.....lab, springer, brit....whatever
Just to throw a wrench in the gears, the smartest dogs I've known in my life were all mutts. There must be something to be said about hybrid vigour. We're talking a dog that you could say "beer me Dude", and the mutt would walk into the kitchen, and grab you a Canadian out of the box. You'd ask him if he was hungry, and he'd moan/grumble "I'm hungry". You'd be on the crapper, laying some cordage, when you'd realize you were out of bowel towel. You'd yell "Dude....bring me some tickets", and he'd go to the pantry and bring you back a roll of ring wipe in his mouth. When you said the word "Ïrish", he'd bare his teeth and growl. Now that's a dog!