Looking for a hunter with a small male setter

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Originally Posted by sidelock

It takes decades and several generations of selective breeding and culling of offspring that don't conform to a high set of standards to produce a solid foundation with heritable desirable qualities and characteristics.

Quote from the book Wing & Shot by Robert Wehle.," There are few true dog breeders in the country today. Many have no preconceived plan and in many cases do not even have a clear cut objective. Their matings are not carefully planned and little consideration is given to the pedigrees or bloodlines. They fly by the seat of their pants into some short term range program".
If you are seriously considering acquiring a dog, my advice is to seek out a reputable breeder that knows what he is trying to produce as an objective and is capable of producing it by employing a sound, well planned and intelligent breeding program.

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More on the topic from Earl C. Crangle

" Improving our bird dogs by selective breeding offers a tremendous challenge to those interested. The breeding of bird dogs cannot be compared to the breeding of beef cattle, where weight gain against time and the amount of feed consumed is the primary concern. Nor can the comparison apply to milk producing cows, laying chickens, whit mice and so on. Scientific breeding of these examples is mainly directed toward improvement of one or two factors that have practically no parallel in the breeding of bird dogs. It is not enough to merely study bloodlines and pedigrees. Our bird dogs today are the result of breeding based on superior performance more than any other single factor."

"Breed only the best individuals, and, thereafter, you must have a heartless culling system to achieve success."

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

It would be cool to see a milking cow on point . :)

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I bet they would be close working though.....

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Originally Posted by Jakezilla

More on the topic from Earl C. Crangle

" Improving our bird dogs by selective breeding offers a tremendous challenge to those interested. The breeding of bird dogs cannot be compared to the breeding of beef cattle, where weight gain against time and the amount of feed consumed is the primary concern. Nor can the comparison apply to milk producing cows, laying chickens, whit mice and so on. Scientific breeding of these examples is mainly directed toward improvement of one or two factors that have practically no parallel in the breeding of bird dogs. It is not enough to merely study bloodlines and pedigrees. Our bird dogs today are the result of breeding based on superior performance more than any other single factor."

"Breed only the best individuals, and, thereafter, you must have a heartless culling system to achieve success."

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I agree that one shouldn't just breed on paper alone but bloodlines and a pedigree full of champions is a start in the right direction providing both parents of a given litter are sound and proven exceptional or preferably outstanding individuals. Certain bloodlines are known for commonly passing on specific traits however desirable or undesirable those traits may be.
Ferell Miller through several years and generations of selective line breeding has practically cloned a winning line of dogs that are virtually identical in every respect including size, markings, gate, posture, nose, bird sense, temperament etc. and he's constantly in the winners circle.

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Originally Posted by sidelock

I agree that one shouldn't just breed on paper alone but bloodlines and a pedigree full of champions is a start in the right direction providing both parents of a given litter are sound and proven exceptional or preferably outstanding individuals. Certain bloodlines are known for commonly passing on specific traits however desirable or undesirable those traits may be.
Ferell Miller through several years and generations of selective line breeding has practically cloned a winning line of dogs that are virtually identical in every respect including size, markings, gate, posture, nose, bird sense, temperament etc. and he's constantly in the winners circle.

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That's the tough part and if you don't know the dogs personally it's really tough to find out. Sound, is the key word, there are lots of champions that are exceptional individuals athletically but I would not consider them mentally sound. People just put up with them because they are winners.

Any idea how many dogs the top breeders go through to get those winning individuals? I do. I am not saying they don't know what they are doing but everything isn't always as it seems.

Almost all the pups I have bought based on pedigree, and there are a few, didn't turn out. Lots of those big name dogs have issues that you never hear about or only hear about after you get a pup out of them and they aren't right in the head. The best success we have had in breeding wild bird dogs and field trial winners is breeding dogs we know.

Don't get me wrong we don't ignore pedigree, there are certain lines we avoid and other lines that we don't want too much of, but we usually have a good idea of what dogs we want to use before we go to pedigrees.

There are several non titled dogs I would breed to before titled dogs. These non titled dogs have the makings of a champion they just haven't had their day yet and may never have it but, they have the tools. Breed titles if you want to sell pups, breed dogs if you want winners and bird dogs. When I go to field trials I watch the dogs that consistently find birds in all conditions and don't pay much attention to the winners. There are certain dogs that will find birds every time they are down, they may not win or finish but they are always into birds. That's the starting point of all our breeding, bird dog first.

Buying an eight week old pup is a crap shoot period, no matter how you look at it regardless how a pup is breed. If you want guarantee, the best way to know exactly what you are getting is to buy a derby or a finished dog that comes with a reasonable assessment period so you can evaluate his temperament in different environment such as around children, strangers, other dogs, in the kennel etc. and only after you see him perform in different conditions to your satisfaction.
An honest and true reputable breeder by definition weeds out any significant undesirable inheritable genetic traits through a sound selective breeding program regardless how outstanding the individuals perform. There are just too many variables in dog breeding and even outstanding individuals can throw duds in a litter. Sometimes you just have to take chances in life however, with some due diligence, the more you familiarize yourself and study a subject, the better understanding you will have and the better chance of getting what you desire and achieving your goal.
I'm not a breeder but have raised a few litters in my time, I have a female that's breed in purple and many have commented how nice she is and ask if I have considered breeding her but I haven't even though she is constantly into birds, simply because she's a nuisance barker and she bounces off the walls with desire in the kennel or her crate when I work other dogs. These issues may be of little if any significance and overlooked by some but they matter to me personally and I avoid having to tolerate them. If I had the time and energy I could breed her and weed out these behavior issues down the line even though it may prove difficult because of the early behavioral influence dams transmit to their offspring but its much easier to avoid having to deal with the long process especially when considering having to cull.
My best advice therefore would be not to bother buying a pup but rather befriend someone with good bird dogs and you get to enjoy them without having to put up with the heart aches, vet bills, training related cost or any other unpleasant issues that comes with them.

Well said!

You are right in not breeding your female, I wouldn't breed her either. Unfortunately I know lots of people who would, including pros.

We recently sold our pick out of a litter we had because of similar reasons and he is doing a lot of winning. You could see at a young age he was going to be a looker I just didn't want to put up with, or breed on, his BS no matter how good he was.

Not questioning your integrity but how did the new owner feel about the dog, was he made aware of the potential issue and does he have the rights to breed him ?
I would consider a reputable breeder to provide full disclosure and even deny registration papers to prevent future breeding in some cases if issues are serious enough, even at the cost of loosing a sale.

They love him and are fine with him. There are certain things I won't tolerate that others will. I believe they have already bred him and he just turned a year old. The other reason we sold him is because we feel we have better, we had 5 young dogs at the time and he was number 5 on the list because of his issues. That whole breeding rights nonsense is BS, who am I to tell someone whether they can breed their dog or not. I have sold dogs to guys who wanted to breed the dog because it was the best bird dog they ever owned. My answer is always don't because there is better out there and we usually end up selling them a dog out of the next litter. The whole "reputable breeder" thing is a bit silly too, I have been screwed a couple times by people that many would consider "reputable breeders". The "reputable breeders" I have dealt with maintain their reputation because they are selling dogs to people who don't know what they are looking at. As soon as someone like me gets a dog or dogs, sees and raises the issues they quit answering their phone but they still cash the cheques.


I am not a breeder in the traditional sense, I am a coverdog trialer that works with a friend in the US and has maybe a litter a year. We have a set goal in mind, that being to produce the best wild bird dogs we can for the grouse woods and South Texas quail. We usually keep the litter until we can identify what we feel are the top two, keep them, and sell the rest to close friends and clients.

A close friend bought a pup from a cover dog breeder a few years ago and at approximately two years old he started developing seizures, after several visits to the vet and extensive blood work it was determined, or at least the vet concluded, that it was genetic. When the owner brought it to the breeder's attention, he replaced the dog with a 16 month old green broke pup "at no cost" or any dispute whatsoever, even though he assured the owner he wasn't aware of it being a genetic issues in his breeding program.
That's what I call a "reputable breeder", as to where the other kind of breeders that don't answer the phone and avoid customers get their reputation as being reputable is beyond me.
I had a bad experience once many years ago with a so called breeder and professional trainer***** from ******** and I made certain I brought the subject up and deservedly smeared his name publicly at all the crowd gatherings at every field trial I attended both in the US and here in Canada. It was the worst publicity anyone can create for himself for the mere cost of a $600 pup.
Individuals conducting bad business intentionally need to be exposed, made public and held accountable to hopefully at the very least discourage them from continuing to prey upon others.