Shooting deer in the heart does not pay my bills but it is a passion...ROTFLMAOQuote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
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Shooting deer in the heart does not pay my bills but it is a passion...ROTFLMAOQuote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
I will have to try and remember that at the camp next year when somebody asks where did you shoot the deer....Well I was aiming for the left ventricle but the way it dropped I thought I hit the apex but turns out the bullet passed through the right atrium! LOL
You can kill a deer with a blunderbuss and a handful of rocks if you shoot them close enough, and if that was all I had and I needed to eat, I guess that would be adequate. All these pie plate pictures do is allow guys to think that mediocrity in killing is satisfactory. Why should you be satisfied with a rifle that shoots a grouping of 5-6 inches. There are very few modern rifles that can't be improved upon to at least shoot a 2 inch group, unless the barrels are shot out or something is grievously wrong. A gun that is capable of an accurate grouping from a bench will shoot accurately to point of aim off of the bench, or as accurately as the shooter can hold it steady. A rifle that sprays bullets unreliably might put your minute of pie plate bullet into the deer's foreleg when you where aiming for the chest in the hands of an unpracticed shooter under field conditions ( the same shooter likely to possess the pieplate gun). Even my rifled barrel shotgun will hold a 2 inch group at 100 yards from a bench, why would anyone satisfy themselves with less? It's been my experience that people that don't take the time or effort to improve the accuracy of their rifles, or improve their own shooting skills don't take the same care with the game they hunt! your mileage may vary!
Here is the other side of the coin, tons of guys can shoot dime sized 5 shot groups on the range at 100 yards but cannot hit a deer in the vitals at 50.Quote:
Originally Posted by diverduck
The pie plate is an ethical area to kill a deer in a very short period of time, if you hit that spot every single time then you will kill that deer every single time.
You are entirely missing the point of the post, he was not stating that pie plate is as good as your gun needs to be, it is that pie the pie plate size is a good representation of the vitals with some room and when shooting in field conditions hitting that pie plate is 100 acceptable to making a clean kill.
Nobody shoots 2" 200 yard groups standing free hand with the adrenaline of a buck coming out of the bush with a split second to take the shot, they are shooting for the vitals, not the hair behind the front shoulder or a black bullseye superimposed on the fur.
Maybe Mike should clarify what he means, because I don't think that diverduck is entirely missing the point. Mike says:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
If Mike means that a 5" grouping off a bench with a proper rest is good enough, I would disagree, and diverduck's assessment seems correct to me. However, if he means that a 5" grouping off hand at 100 yards is good enough, I would agree. It is very difficult to shoot such a group offhand at 100 yards, and although I can shoot MOA groups off a bench, I doubt I could shoot a 5" group offhand at 100 yards. I doubt that many hunters could do so. That being said, I would hope that most people with a reasonable amount of shooting experience would recognize this and look for some sort of improvised rest to shoot at a deer at that distance. With a decently stable improvised rest, a 5" group at 100 yards is not difficult, assuming the gun shoots better than that off the bench. If all it can do under ideal conditions is 5" at 100 yards, well then you are SOL.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Quoting MikePalQuote:
Originally Posted by Fox
"[COLOR=#333333]That is why when guys say 'Pie Plate' is good ...they aren't kidding.
[COLOR=#333333]I guess we've all become so used to using rests, 9x scopes and looking at pictures of the 'Bull's Eye' hits with pictures taken from 12" away, that we think that you 'need' to shoot MOA, but reality is even 5" grouping will still hit the heart."
The above is a direct excerpt from Mike's original post. I don't think I've missed the point at all. He basically stated a 5 inch gun is good enough to take into the field because it will still hit the heart. I agree, in the hand of an excellent shot a gun that groups 5 inches is probably just fine. But most excellent shots won't own a gun that only does 5 inches unless its a collector piece, or has a great deal of sentimental value. Even an average shot such as myself, who spends a bit of time to be practiced in the art of killing game won't waste much time on a 5 inch gun. I'd much rather shoot a gun that does 1.5 inch because the technology is there, and it makes my average but practiced shooting under field conditions that much more accurate at the end of the day. Once again, it's been my experience that those satisfied with a gun that shoots a 5 inch group typically don't spend much time practicing with their guns, under range or field conditions, and that a more accurate firearm may help them to actually put the bullet in the pieplate when their adrenaline is pumping when the deer walks out, instead of blowing off a foreleg or putting one in the gut. I don't see the point in promoting mediocrity in hunting. The end game is killing, at least extend game animals the courtesy of doing it well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by diverduck
You said it perfectly.
If you are only shooting from a bench on that deer then 5in grouping off a bench would be quite fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by rf2
If your gun groups 5" at 300 yards with a bipod would you be safe to use that bipod rested rifle for deer at 300 yards or do you need a rifle that shoots 1" at 300 yards to be acceptable?
If you are shooting off a bench and your sights and or fundamentals only allow a 5 inch groups @ 100 yds, one is better off finding a better gun or a load and spending one's money and trigger time improving one's shooting skills.
Shooting consistent 5" groups @ 100 yds is not equivalent in any measure with shooting the same grouping size @ 300 yds.
It is why shooting a 5" group offhand @ 100 yds is different than a 5" group off of a rest.
The results of poor marksmanship, a poor rifle and a poor load only gets worse at distance from muzzle.
A 5 " group off of a bipod@300 yds is equivalent to ~1.5@ 100 yds. 1" group @ 300 yds is equivalent to ~.3"@100 yds.
However, a 5" group@ 100 yds is equivalent to ~15" @ 300 yds, whether from a bench or off hand. That would miss many deer vital zone completely and many whole deer completely.
I think some of you guys are misunderstanding the idea I was trying convey. Fox seems to have a grasp of the concept.
The ‘Pie Plate'…is a 10” representation of the vitals and the pic, with the heart on a pie plate, is a visual aid to show why a shot inside the 10” vital area is fatal.
The tacks pinned into the heart illustrate that regardless of where you hit that heart…even 5” off dead centre ...it will be fatal. The point being, the amount of accuracy required to make a fatal shoot is not limited MOA accuracy.
The whole idea of this thread was to point out that shooting ‘Pie Plate’ is in fact as accurate and as fatal as MOA accuracy. A kill shot is a kill shot…no such thing as ‘more dead’.
As I said in my first post: “we should strive to make the best shot possible, but a lot of hunters don't have the opportunity to shot often or desire to become 'snipers'.”
To take what has been discussed and say :is reflective off not understanding what is trying to be conveyed.Quote:
“All these pie plate pictures do is allow guys to think that mediocrity in killing is satisfactory. Why should you be satisfied with a rifle that shoots a grouping of 5-6 inches.”
As always, shot placement is paramount and the assumption is made that the shot is actually hitting the vital area on a deer. The discussion wasn’t meant to include all the 'what if' variables and scenarios of guys not being able to hit the vitals. I’m sure even the average guy can hit a ‘Pie Plate’ at 100 yds using a supported barrel.
Simply…if you can hit the vitals..inside the proverbial 10” Pie Plate…the shot will be fatal.