Doe Or Fawn

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Originally Posted by hockeymjt

The natives will take fawns allowing the does to continue to reproduce...they say that a doe fawn is 2 years away from reproducing and high coyote country likely wont make it thru the winter if the doe has been eliminated.

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This is highly inaccurate, especially in the south. In agricultural areas, approximately 50% of doe fawns will be bred (there is a weight threshold they need to meet, which I can't remember off-hand) as fawns and will produce a fawn around their first birthday.

This is easily observed in the field. If you shoot a doe, check her teeth for the characteristic tricuspid that remains on 1.5 year old deer. Where I hunt, about half of the 1.5 year old does we shoot will have a full milk bag, indicating that they were bred as fawns and successfully reared their own fawn as a 1-year-old.

That said, taking the fawn is definitely the right choice if you are trying to build your herd, as fawn winter mortality is significantly greater than adult winter mortality. i.e. you are taking an animal that is statistically less likely to survive the winter.

For me, I prefer to pass the does and fawns until late in the season. I like to save my tag for a big buck and have plenty of opportunities to kill deer later in the season.

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Originally Posted by gbk

Hi MikePal-thank You for trying to understand my comments.I admit it is not an easy read,but that does not change anything i stated.
As far as David Kramer is concerned-i really have no idea who he is,and i am not bashing the guy.I had hard time to find some info on him on the Web though,which may be an indication him not being as widely known and accepted as lets say : Alsheimer,Geist,Lee Rue III or the more popular authors Eberhart or Miller.

As far as my take on this subject is-Doe abundance is bad for herd sustainability or else:My opinion-His Opinion-Your Opinion.
We all have one.

We should just agree that we disagree.

Back to the author-i found one more article from him,where he is explaining deer urine -Do Deer Lures Actually work article ( The jury for lure effectiveness is out. While many sportsmen credit lures for their success, they may have been just as successful if they had hung a pine-scented air freshener in front of their stand.)
With all the humbleness i can not transfer thru my reply,and with all good intentions not to be smart or else-it seems he unfortunately never harvested deer with doe pee!Until the Regulation did not change,i was lucky enough to lure 5-6 bucks/and -or does in,and harvested 3 of them bucks,with farmed deer doe pee).James Valley Doe in heat to be exact.How i know this actually works- because they all followed the scent trail i laid out.

Alas-i lost this great tool few years back,the synthetic lures/pees never captured my fancy.
So much about Do Deer Lures Actually work article.

Cheers and peace.

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The old deer-pee used to work. I've tried the synthetics - even set it up in front of cameras - and the bucks aren't interested.
But many others have used them - including the burning scent sticks - with success. And having not been there - I'm not in a position to contradict.

Interesting list of authors, but keep in mind Alsheimer is a photographer and a writer, not a biologist.
Given the other authors on your list, if you can find articles/books by John J Ozoga, I think you will enjoy those.
He worked with whitetails at the Cusino enclosure in Michigan.

For the last couple of years I have been watching YouTube videos Of Dr ken norburg found him highly informative and knowledgeable.

I try to take a dry doe or a late season yearling. Like most guys as the season progresses I get less selective in order to fill the freezer.

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Originally Posted by gbk

With all the humbleness i can not transfer thru my reply,and with all good intentions not to be smart or else-it seems he unfortunately never harvested deer with doe pee!

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Not to be obstinate, he never said Doe Pee pee doesn't work, he related that of the 4 things tested they all did equally well.

And I agree with him..Deer are curious and will come to just about anything they find different.

I've been using Deer Scent sticks for many many years with great success....one the best is the Deer Quest brand named ' Curiosity' ..doesn't claim to smell anything like Doe pee....but it sure brings in the deer. Does included.

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Unfortunately, there are limited studies that evaluate the effectiveness of attracting deer. One of the few studies on the effectiveness of lures compared how white-tailed deer in Texas reacted to four different scents: deer urine, synthetic deer urine, human urine, and new-car smell. During a three-and-a-half-week period, two of which were during the rut, deer investigated the four sites equally.

The findings of this work suggest that deer likely visit and investigate urine scents and other lures because it’s a foreign scent in their environment, and they may be less concerned about the origin or “meaning” of the scent. Additionally, the Texas study seems to indicate that deer-urine lures may not present the right scent to really entice deer to regularly investigate. This begs the question, is there any difference between the urine of a deer in the wild versus what you buy in a bottle? Or the air freshener sold to replicate the synthetic-plastic smell of a new car?

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I'll have to try the New Car scent freshener in front of the trail cam after the Hunt season is over and see if it does work HaHa...

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

The old deer-pee used to work. I've tried the synthetics - even set it up in front of cameras - and the bucks aren't interested.
But many others have used them - including the burning scent sticks - with success. And having not been there - I'm not in a position to contradict.

Interesting list of authors, but keep in mind Alsheimer is a photographer and a writer, not a biologist.
Given the other authors on your list, if you can find articles/books by John J Ozoga, I think you will enjoy those.
He worked with whitetails at the Cusino enclosure in Michigan.

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Thanx Werner-i will see his books.I really enjoy just about any deer hunting related book or article,as long as the author seems credible.
For Alsheimer-yep,You are right,he made his fame as photographer,but thru all his work, he used his observations,statistical approach and a sharp mind to put the pieces of the puzzle together.Also he had a fortune to observe"his own herd"on his own land,and he is a smart man.Every book he wrote about Whitetail is very educational .

Oh-and i tried and scared the hell out of a big buck with the scent stick...........it was many years ago,so not sure what kind it was,but it was a deer scent-rut oriented(maybe Doe in heat,not sure):ashamed:he came downwind to investigate,and he took off with great crashing and snorting after taking in a mouthful of the scent stick smell.I think it was just too close to him,so he did not like the strong scent.My bad....should have put it further from the path i was expecting the buck to come on .
But-i throw the rest of them sticks away,at least for whitetail hunting,never to look back.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Not to be obstinate, he never said Doe Pee pee doesn't work, he related that of the 4 things tested they all did equally well.

And I agree with him..Deer are curious and will come to just about anything they find different.

I've been using Deer Scent sticks for many many years with great success....one the best is the Deer Quest brand named ' Curiosity' ..doesn't claim to smell anything like Doe pee....but it sure brings in the deer. Does included.



I'll have to try the New Car scent freshener in front of the trail cam after the Hunt season is over and see if it does work HaHa...

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Agreed with all You stated above-deer are curious ,and will investigate(given circumstances)just about anything.
I had bad luck with scent stick-see above reply,and given up on them for deer hunting.
Some people even claim they lure deer with sardines.....some claim they run a radio with low tone, playing music,which also attracts deer.
Many things work(given circumstances)one just need to pick his own tools from a great big Deerhunting toolbox.

At the other hand- i also try to avoid being hard headed here,but the piece of the article i attached earlier, states his opinion in the Do Deer Lure actually works article.From the web proper.
Now-here is the catch-he has high opinion about deer urine not working better then anything else!As a lure.Yet as a whitetail author he would be better (in my opinion)to actually talk about other deer pee application in the very same article-to have balanced approach,and not to send a wrong message-The scent drag!

This being omitted in an outdoors article ,educating other deer hunters about deer urine(in my opinion:ashamed:) is sloppy, at best.

In my experience with artificial pee is it is nothing more than a cover scent. I have hung scent wicks on Manitoulin Island, Burk Falls and here in the Windsor area without success. I am not saying they will not work for others, they just haven't for me.

Mike, ever just pee in an active scrape? We did that one year, pissed off that buck big time, he opened up that scrape like crazy and it was human pee, ha ha.

I'm not a believer in the scents either. Last year we had 2 bucks walk right past them and not even look at them. Both bucks were young a 4 and 8pnt. Had the wicks out about 20yds hoping that they would stop and have a look, neither did, but they did walk right up to my boy for a 15ft shot for the 8pnt and 20ft for my 4pnt.