Our home ON native land

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Originally Posted by glen

If the descendent is to be held accountable for the actions how far back in time can we go to punish people. Maybe the ones that nailed someone to a cross can be found.

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Several First Nations tribes will be in trouble if they were held to a similar standard, considering many especially plains tribes lived a raiding and plunder life style. It was common practice by some of these tribes to steal women and continually sexually assault them until they lost all self will and identity and merged into the tribe. Mankind no matter what group has done huge lists of atrocities, and if we were to go back and hold everyone accountable for there ancestors sins we’d all be in hot water. To be clear I fully agree that what was done to many of these native kids is horrible, if there are still people around who did these crimes, than I fully agree they should be punished.

Some of the arguments in here are very funny and riddled with logical inconsistencies.

The same arguments being used to discredit the claim of the original inhabitants of North America would be scoffed at if applied to Switzerland for example. Why do they get all the best land with the best living conditions, all they did was occupy that space for over a thousand years.

Hey whitey no one is saying you personally did something. Maybe you did and that's why you feel so defensive. At the end of the day life is full of different versions of this one basic lesson; just because it is not your fault does not mean it is not your responsibility.

Our responsibility as citizens is to care for our citizens. We do not live in a zero sum game and giving help to one person does not mean help is being taken away from someone else.

I am seeing vast ignorance of North American history in here, and it is shameful. I am lucky enough that one of my parents has access to photocopies of original documents that are not allowed to leave the National Archives/Library. The personal thoughts and feelings of the people who governed this place were inhumane not by today's standards but the standards of basic human decency. They did not send the beat and brightest to settle this land, they sent who they saw as expendable. We are a nation founded by drunks, theives, murders and, swindlers. There is very little to be proud of in the creation of our nation. Seems like we could at least seek some pride in how we care for our people now.

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Originally Posted by Terrible_E

Some of the arguments in here are very funny and riddled with logical inconsistencies.

The same arguments being used to discredit the claim of the original inhabitants of North America would be scoffed at if applied to Switzerland for example. Why do they get all the best land with the best living conditions, all they did was occupy that space for over a thousand years.

Hey whitey no one is saying you personally did something. Maybe you did and that's why you feel so defensive. At the end of the day life is full of different versions of this one basic lesson; just because it is not your fault does not mean it is not your responsibility.

Our responsibility as citizens is to care for our citizens. We do not live in a zero sum game and giving help to one person does not mean help is being taken away from someone else.

I am seeing vast ignorance of North American history in here, and it is shameful. I am lucky enough that one of my parents has access to photocopies of original documents that are not allowed to leave the National Archives/Library. The personal thoughts and feelings of the people who governed this place were inhumane not by today's standards but the standards of basic human decency. They did not send the beat and brightest to settle this land, they sent who they saw as expendable. We are a nation founded by drunks, theives, murders and, swindlers. There is very little to be proud of in the creation of our nation. Seems like we could at least seek some pride in how we care for our people now.

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I’m open if you’d like to show me one. The reason Switzerland owns their land is they’ve successfully held it. Is that morally right maybe not, but that’s unfortunately how it’s been throughout the history of mankind. Again I could point out that many native tribes invaded and pushed other tribes out. Just to be clear I’m not defending the actions of the government or the Catholic Church. Sure we need to take care of our citizens, hence they have many government supports and the fact they don’t have to pay taxes. As to me being defensive, It’s simply expressingy opinion on the matter, unlikely I could have done anything considering that residential schools were closed decades before I was born.

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Originally Posted by Terrible_E

Some of the arguments in here are very funny and riddled with logical inconsistencies.

The same arguments being used to discredit the claim of the original inhabitants of North America would be scoffed at if applied to Switzerland for example. Why do they get all the best land with the best living conditions, all they did was occupy that space for over a thousand years.

Hey whitey no one is saying you personally did something. Maybe you did and that's why you feel so defensive. At the end of the day life is full of different versions of this one basic lesson; just because it is not your fault does not mean it is not your responsibility.

Our responsibility as citizens is to care for our citizens. We do not live in a zero sum game and giving help to one person does not mean help is being taken away from someone else.

I am seeing vast ignorance of North American history in here, and it is shameful. I am lucky enough that one of my parents has access to photocopies of original documents that are not allowed to leave the National Archives/Library. The personal thoughts and feelings of the people who governed this place were inhumane not by today's standards but the standards of basic human decency. They did not send the beat and brightest to settle this land, they sent who they saw as expendable. We are a nation founded by drunks, theives, murders and, swindlers. There is very little to be proud of in the creation of our nation. Seems like we could at least seek some pride in how we care for our people now.

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Well Terrible_E, I got it, that our first prime minister Sir John A. had the reputation of being one of the drunks, who were among the other thieves, murders and swindlers?

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you8 stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Bushwhacker;1209801

As for the wacky claims about this being native land, a few things:

1) Which group of natives, exactly? It was a land mass of continually warring and mostly nomadic tribes. Which group could claim ownership?

(r) Well please refer to the already posted information https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/...-eng.htm#part2

As you can see from the charts the various tribes had geographic area's they operated in and many were not nomadic. A village of 800 growing corn and maize. https://torontoist.com/2015/06/histo...-of-teiaiagon/


2) I thought according to leftist/progressive orthodoxy, we are all immigrants? Technically the natives came from Asia thousands of years ago. So they aren’t in any way ‘native’ to this land. What about the second or third group of natives to arrive? Should they go back to where they came from? Who decides? How do you square all of this?

(r) Real simple, when the Vikings arrived they were meet by Natives.


3) Just because a group of people merely existed in a certain geographic area does not automatically make that a nation. There was no concept of country at all during this time

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(r) Its all here all you have to do is read it https://www.britannica.com/list/the-...is-confederacy[/QUOTE]

This does not address or answer any of my questions.

The very term used to define the group does not make sense, as technically they were not native to this land anymore than you or I. The left has always had a problem defining things (they can't even define what a woman is) so pick a lane and try to present a consistent / coherent argument.

Which group was the original? That seems to be the lynchpin for the "colonization was the worst thing ever" crowd. But it's an infinite regress with no foundation (Mohawks can tell the Sioux to leave, but the Hurons can tell the Mohawks to leave, and so on, all the way back to the first men). The claim quickly falls apart.

So it can't simply be a question of who came first, as that is a dead end. The conversation must inevitably wade into the realm of values, and which values are better than others. Is cannibalism, torture, slavery and human sacrifice the pinnacle of human virtue? Or is there something unique about Western (aka Christian) culture that sees each person made in the divine image of God, allowing things to move forward in a way not before seen.

I'm not sure what your link is supposed to prove. That a particular group of natives in a small geographic area entered into a peace treaty with relative success for a certain time? This does not mean they formed the country of Canada, with all that entails. A vision and undertaking of that scope was simply not possible.

People have lived in both peace and war throughout history. People have traded and elected leaders since the dawn of time. Democracy existed all the way back in the 6th century BC. Even animals are able to cooperate within relatively complex social structures.

Although the words to the anthem have been changed throughout it's course, all the changes were done through parliament. I don't doubt that if someone approached parliament about making an official change, it would happen. Until then, sing the official words, or don't sing at all. After all, the singer is representing all Canadians, and this should not be used as a personal vehicle to promote their agenda.

While I believe that indigineous kids were subject to abuse and neglect at the hands of their European reformers, it seems that the narrative has become one sided regarding the burial grounds that keep making the news. This article describes what was known before the woke media jumped on the story and sensationalized it.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/the...-school-graves


What irritates me about this native vs non-native arguement, is the portrayal of first nations people as being a peaceful, happy go lucky group. While this may have been the case in some instances, it certainly wasn't in others. Some tribes were behaving the same way some Europeans were, before their arrival. The slave trade among indigenous tribes was booming before the arrival of the white man.

https://www.dorchesterreview.ca/blog...s-their-slaves

And, genocide wasn't something that was only carried out by whites. Native groups had been fighting amongst themselves for years, with the goal being to plunder, loot, and eradicate the opposition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaver_Wars

The question that needs to have an answer is, how long does this reconcilation have to go on before it can be put to rest, or can it ever?

[QUOTE=warpipe;1209818]

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Are you trying to tell us that children forced from the hands of their parents by RCMP officers, separated from siblings, deprived of their parents, forced to speak only English, some even later adopted out. That the aboriginal community should be THANKFUL.

The whole idea of taking these children was not to look after them but to "take the Indian out of them" somehow make them fit into colonial society or the white man's world.

Sorry but so far I have not hear ONE SINGLE STORY where a child subject to the residential prison system wanted to THANK THE AUTHORITIES.

Perhaps you can dig up some accounts of this happening and post them for me?

I'd suggest reading William Gairdener "Balancing The Biased Genocide Story About Residential Schools" It's an interesting article about Inuvik Dene Chief Cece Hodgins McCauley she became the first female chief of one of the 23 bands in the Northwest Territories. The recipient of a 2017 Inspire Award for her achievements and contributions in politics reported that many former students were coming forward with their good and positive side of their residential school experiences. Elders had phoned her to express concern that only the negative side of the residential schools was being publicized. "They are planning to start a committee of elders to make public the positive side of residential schools. They all agree that Canadians must be made aware of the positive stories", she wrote.
Another is a Cree story teller Tomson Highway a playwright, novelist, classical pianist and Order of Canada recipient. Regarding the Truth and Reconciliation Commission he commented " You may have heard stories from 7000 witnesses in the process that were negative", he adds "but what you haven't heard are the 7000 reports that were positive stories. He goes on to say that there are very many successful people today with brilliant careers that wouldn't have happened without these schools.
Again I'll reiterate that I realize horrendous atrocities occurred and I hope some kind of justice will be served but instead of all the negative stories perhaps some light can be reflected on some of the positive stories.

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Nice to hear of these accounts from you.

Gun Nut;1209825 Its all here all you have to do is read it https://www.britannica.com/list/the-...is-confederacy[/QUOTE]

"A thought came to mind about the notion of "native land." You become a native of a place simply by being born there, so the word "native" doesn't really purpose the circumstance which the singer appears to want to get at. Perhaps more to the point of the intent would be better served by changing the lyrics to: " Our home on indigenous land." This would establish the idea of the first peoples to settle and have ownership of this continent prior to colonization by Europeans. Before that colonization there were numerous tribes of indigenous people each with their own tribal region, I have a map of North America that was drawn up to detail the various tribal regions. It runs from the High Artic through to the bottom of the isthmus that joins up with South America."

Good Post.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut[/QUOTE]

Just so nobody misunderstands any of my post…I don’t agree with what the Government or Catholic Church did, I’m not some anti native racist either. My much appreciated hunting, fishing, and trapping mentor has native blood. He would also eco everything I’ve said so far. All I’m saying is if we all have to start paying for our ancestors sins we all in big trouble. Every group of people included.

So....history aka The Past is the lesson learned here and now in The Present so as we don't make the same mistakes in The Future ?
As for the OP ? If changing the words to our national anthem is a crime then a whole lot of people are in trouble. Heck ! I'm 66 yrs old and still flub it up on occasion .