Slug Shotgun vs. Large Calibre Rifle

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Originally Posted by Kilo Charlie

Fox, did you see the ENERGY figures for the .410 slug? They have about the energy at the muzzle that a 170-grain .30-30 has at 300 yards.

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Those were the energy numbers for 410, compared to 357 Mag.

I did not say that you should go out and shoot the 410 for deer, but I wanted to compare it to the 357 which some people say is a good round for deer, I disagree.

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Originally Posted by standup

Ya and both marginal for anything greater in size than the common gopher. Ya I know. The thuddy thuddy has killed more deer than anything else. Babe Ruth also holds the home run record. You know who also holds the record for most strike outs? (Hint, same name). When Your the only gun in the bush, which for a very long time the thuddy was, of course You'll have the highest kill numbers. They also have the highest wound numbers too. Neither one would ever be pointed at an animal I intended to harvest

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.30-30 has lots of energy for deer....but not at 300 yards. The .44mag is a low end deer cartridge at best. Many of the factory .44mag handgun loads are to weak (insufficient speed for proper expansion), even with HP. The .357 and other handgun cartridges just don't cut it.

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

.30-30 has lots of energy for deer....but not at 300 yards. The .44mag is a low end deer cartridge at best. Many of the factory .44mag handgun loads are to weak (insufficient speed for proper expansion), even with HP. The .357 and other handgun cartridges just don't cut it.

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The thuddy for urban/farm deer maybe. I've watched our hill deer take a thuddy through and through like it was Your daisy red rider. You can thank Clint Eastwood for people having the notion that the cartridge lives up to "MAGNUM"

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

.30-30 has lots of energy for deer....but not at 300 yards. The .44mag is a low end deer cartridge at best. Many of the factory .44mag handgun loads are to weak (insufficient speed for proper expansion), even with HP. The .357 and other handgun cartridges just don't cut it.

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We had a guy at camp tell me that he could run faster than the 30-30 and that it was a useless cartridge and the rifles were only good for boat anchors. He also stated that he was using a 44 Mag that year, a Ruger (really nice rifle) but he borrowed it, never took a shot with it and claimed the reloads ran 240gr bullets at 3000fps, hmm.

My post was for perspective, I see you got it.
20ga shotguns vs 12ga shotguns with sabot slugs makes no difference to the deer, they will be dead. The 12ga may hurt your shoulder a little more and weigh you down over a long haul.

Remember when people shot deer with a 38-40, 44-40 and 45 LC? I guess deer have gotten tougher, did they can armour plating in their fur over the years?

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Originally Posted by Fox

We had a guy at camp tell me that he could run faster than the 30-30 and that it was a useless cartridge and the rifles were only good for boat anchors. He also stated that he was using a 44 Mag that year, a Ruger (really nice rifle) but he borrowed it, never took a shot with it and claimed the reloads ran 240gr bullets at 3000fps, hmm.

My post was for perspective, I see you got it.
20ga shotguns vs 12ga shotguns with sabot slugs makes no difference to the deer, they will be dead. The 12ga may hurt your shoulder a little more and weigh you down over a long haul.

Remember when people shot deer with a 38-40, 44-40 and 45 LC? I guess deer have gotten tougher, did they can armour plating in their fur over the years?

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Not sure about the other two - but the .44-40 doesn't really get it done much better than a good crossbow.

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Not sure about the other two - but the .44-40 doesn't really get it done much better than a good crossbow.

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Neither does the 38-40 or the 45LC, all 3 of these were pistol/carbine cartridges originally in blackpowder. They were designed to be used in the rifle and pistol so the owner only had to buy ammo for 1, saved space and money.

The 45LC can be hot loaded in a rifle to get up to around the 44 Mag power but based on factory loads they are quite low. That being said, they were the go to deer cartridges before the "high velocity" 30-30 came out. It has been argued that the 44-40 has shot more deer in history than the 30-30 but I would not argue either way. All 3 of these were used in close quarters and ruined very little meat but so did the 22LR when it was needed.

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Originally Posted by Fox

We had a guy at camp tell me that he could run faster than the 30-30 and that it was a useless cartridge and the rifles were only good for boat anchors. He also stated that he was using a 44 Mag that year, a Ruger (really nice rifle) but he borrowed it, never took a shot with it and claimed the reloads ran 240gr bullets at 3000fps, hmm.

My post was for perspective, I see you got it.
20ga shotguns vs 12ga shotguns with sabot slugs makes no difference to the deer, they will be dead. The 12ga may hurt your shoulder a little more and weigh you down over a long haul.

Remember when people shot deer with a 38-40, 44-40 and 45 LC? I guess deer have gotten tougher, did they can armour plating in their fur over the years?

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No but the difference between yesterday's deer and today's is the same difference I sight when I say urban/farm/use to people deer to high hill wild deer. Not as high strung fight or flight

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Originally Posted by standup

No but the difference between yesterday's deer and today's is the same difference I sight when I say urban/farm/use to people deer to high hill wild deer. Not as high strung fight or flight

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A hole in the chest if a hole in the chest, the fact that the deer may take off has nothing to do with it.
If you get within 20 yards for a bow shot it is no different than using a 38-40 at that same range. I have been told though that the 30-30, 20ga and many other rounds "cannot kill a deer". That does not sound right to me, at 300 yards maybe, but I know for sure that my personal range is not even close to 300 yards, so no need for a 300 yard deer gun for me.

As for a shotgun, in the bush we push, if I am the dogger, I cannot seem more than 10 yards, anything legal for a shotgun will work great. 410 slug would do it just fine, 20ga with #1 buck, 20ga slug, 12ga slug, you don't need sights, nothing, it is that close. That being said, if you are in the fields use some sort of scope with a 20ga slug and there is no need for a large caliber rifle up to the 200 yard range, it will make no difference on a deer sized animal with thin skin and bones. 45 caliber slugs with a muzzle velocity of 1800fps pack a punch.

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Originally Posted by Fox

A hole in the chest if a hole in the chest, the fact that the deer may take off has nothing to do with it.
If you get within 20 yards for a bow shot it is no different than using a 38-40 at that same range. I have been told though that the 30-30, 20ga and many other rounds "cannot kill a deer". That does not sound right to me, at 300 yards maybe, but I know for sure that my personal range is not even close to 300 yards, so no need for a 300 yard deer gun for me.

As for a shotgun, in the bush we push, if I am the dogger, I cannot seem more than 10 yards, anything legal for a shotgun will work great. 410 slug would do it just fine, 20ga with #1 buck, 20ga slug, 12ga slug, you don't need sights, nothing, it is that close. That being said, if you are in the fields use some sort of scope with a 20ga slug and there is no need for a large caliber rifle up to the 200 yard range, it will make no difference on a deer sized animal with thin skin and bones. 45 caliber slugs with a muzzle velocity of 1800fps pack a punch.

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Where you get into trouble with the underpowered rounds (.410 slug, .357 etc) is when you don't have what would be a reasonable bow shot (i.e. broadside or quartering away). I'd have no trouble with a texas heart shot with a .30-30 170gr. I wouldn't be so confident with a .410, .357 or even a .44 mag.

I've often heard the term "I wounded it"

Oddly enough while standing there looking down at a well anchored animal I've never heard "He's too dead"

Therefore

I'll stick with a little ooomph