Scarcity of Deer ???

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Originally Posted by jaycee

I spoke with a fellow I've known for years, he told me that they found a coyote den on a farm back last spring.
They set up a camera close by to keep track of what was going on, they also changed the card weekly, so they would not get repeat pictures.
During the time the camera was set up and until they family moved to another den site, the pictures had shown that the adult coyotes had dragged in 11 , yes that is eleven different fawns to feed their pups.
At eleven fawns, that is "a lot " of deer taken out of the system.

Looks like there will have to be a lot more guys/gals out there hunting/shooting coyotes to help get the deer population back up on it's feet.

Our M.N.R.F will also have to look into this with more foresight/ openmindedness than they have , open up the coyote/wolf hunting in areas they have closed, and also " stop" with all the extra tags that have been available over the years, and also look into possibly shortening the lenght of the deer season .
Myself I see no reason to carry on with an archery season after the December shotgun/muzzle loader hunt, that is my opinion and there is no reason to starts arguements here on this forum about it. Open discussion yes but no arguements.

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Can you get some pictures of the coyotes dragging the fawns back to the dawns and post them here... I can make sure they end up in the proper people's hands at MNR.

I like Monsters idea of putting the pictures that Jaycees friend has in the hands of the MNR.
Show them what is happening.

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Originally Posted by Monster29/66

Can you get some pictures of the coyotes dragging the fawns back to the dawns and post them here... I can make sure they end up in the proper people's hands at MNR.

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I think that has already been done, but don't forget this happened way back last spring.

Jaycee... this goes hand in hand with what I've noticed around here for the past few years. Our deer sightings during the gun season have been way down. Those of us that hunt the archery season have not been seeing much either. However, we are still seeing sign in the usual places, not as much but enough to be encouraging.

My theory has been that it's because the one and a half year old deer are just not around like they used to be. As we all know, those are the deer that are generally seen or shot during the hunting season. The older, smarter deer are still around to leave sign, mostly at night, but the younger deer are largely missing from the population because they just aren't surviving as fawns. Trail camera pics (by those in the group that use them) seem to support this as well. Mostly older deer and mostly at night. We're also seeing more coyotes in places we've never seen them in the past.

I don't doubt for a second that those coyotes ate 11 fawns.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

I think that has already been done, but don't forget this happened way back last spring.

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I have little doubt coyotes are having a negative impact on the deer, personally this year I killed 4 while out deer hunting and saw many on cam both in day and night.

We ran hounds the other day and two more bit the biscuit.

I do not believe yotes are the sole or primary reason populations are down.

Let's not forget we had back to back brutally cold winters with deep snow ( ideal conditions for yotes to kill deer ) and difficult winters for deer just to survive, especially if they were over populated as scarce food doesn't go far with more mouths to feed.

Herd numbers don't recover over in one season with the light winter we had i definately noticed more yote pups running around this year.

However at the end of the day most hunters still can only get one deer tag and I do applaud MNR for getting rid of the extra tags on the WMUs I hunt and restricting antler less deer tags.. I think the new reality is that although hunters are getting less tags they are still filling them.

I know of one group of 14 that filled their 14 tags on the shotgun hunt dogging small bushes I'm not sure that
Deer are that scarce.

They are however getting a lot smarter with the heavy pressure that occurs both by dogging and guys bow hunting three months of the year.

We will see what MNR does with the antler less deer draws this year and if less non antlered deer tags are issued my observation though is the deer herd in the WMUs I hunt is stable but slightly lower than what most hunters prefer.

We can all do our part by limiting harvest of mature does with fawns if your not happy with your local herd numbers and take out your lack of deer harvesting opportunities on the local gang of Coyotes.

My yote bait pile started Sunday. I've got 2 50 cal muzzleloaders with powder n bullets still in the bore from deer hunting..... I'm just too cheap to waste those loads on a target when I can put another big hole in a dirty ole yote. .

Ps i am convinced high numbers of turkeys in some areas are reducing the carrying capacity of the land for deer.

When 120 Turks move into a 15 acre cut corn field that is left not disced for the deer as a food source and start eating a cob a day minimum...

What is left for the deer that need that corn to fatten up for winter.

Its seems like there’s a whole legion of hunters out there who think that the deer numbers we experienced in the first decade of this millennium, and all the extra tags that came with it, are the norm. It is not, at least not in Ontario.

Yes deer numbers are still low in some areas, but are gradually rebounding in others. In much of southern & south-western Ontario the deer hunting is great.

The primary reason for the still low deer numbers in those parts of the province where I hunt are the back-to-back hard winters of 2013/14 and 2014/15. Those winters knocked the snot out of our deer population.

The years 2000-2012 were the modern “good ol’ days” of Ontario deer hunting, yet during the tail-end of that period many hunters were already seeing a downward trend. The abundant additional tags and antlerless validations were certainly working to bring the deer population down, as they were supposed to. But what puzzled many of us was that when deer numbers were back down to what most of us considered “normal levels”, the MNR still kept giving out extra and antlerless tags like beads at a Mardi Gras parade. So hunters kept filling additional tags and shooting every doe they saw because every hunter had an antlerless validation in his pocket.

Then the winter of 2013/14 hit and it was bad for the deer, but for reasons unknown we were still showered with tags & antlerless validations. Then the unthinkable happened and there was another bad winter in 2014/15. As a result the additional tags dried up somewhat, but many groups still had more antlerless validations than they knew what to do with. Its like there was a 3-year time-lag in MNR decision-making when it came to tags/validations. It was the worst possible combination, the MNR licensed us to shoot too many deer in general and too many does in particular, just as Mother Nature gave the herd a huge -kicking.

One relatively easy winter in 2015/16 does not instantly recover a deer herd. Deer still have to be conceived and grow. Yes coyotes take deer and by all means shoot every ‘yote you see, but they are not the main problem as far as our deer are concerned. Our deer are not in a crisis situation and the deer will come back to realistic normal levels, as long as the next few winters are not unusually harsh. At the same time I really hope that the MNR finds a way to be more responsive and timely in adjusting tag/validation numbers.

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Originally Posted by ninepointer

Its seems like there’s a whole legion of hunters out there who think that the deer numbers we experienced in the first decade of this millennium, and all the extra tags that came with it, are the norm. It is not, at least not in Ontario.

Yes deer numbers are still low in some areas, but are gradually rebounding in others. In much of southern & south-western Ontario the deer hunting is great.

The primary reason for the still low deer numbers in those parts of the province where I hunt are the back-to-back hard winters of 2013/14 and 2014/15. Those winters knocked the snot out of our deer population.

The years 2000-2012 were the modern “good ol’ days” of Ontario deer hunting, yet during the tail-end of that period many hunters were already seeing a downward trend. The abundant additional tags and antlerless validations were certainly working to bring the deer population down, as they were supposed to. But what puzzled many of us was that when deer numbers were back down to what most of us considered “normal levels”, the MNR still kept giving out extra and antlerless tags like beads at a Mardi Gras parade. So hunters kept filling additional tags and shooting every doe they saw because every hunter had an antlerless validation in his pocket.

Then the winter of 2013/14 hit and it was bad for the deer, but for reasons unknown we were still showered with tags & antlerless validations. Then the unthinkable happened and there was another bad winter in 2014/15. As a result the additional tags dried up somewhat, but many groups still had more antlerless validations than they knew what to do with. Its like there was a 3-year time-lag in MNR decision-making when it came to tags/validations. It was the worst possible combination, the MNR licensed us to shoot too many deer in general and too many does in particular, just as Mother Nature gave the herd a huge -kicking.

One relatively easy winter in 2015/16 does not instantly recover a deer herd. Deer still have to be conceived and grow. Yes coyotes take deer and by all means shoot every ‘yote you see, but they are not the main problem as far as our deer are concerned. Our deer are not in a crisis situation and the deer will come back to realistic normal levels, as long as the next few winters are not unusually harsh. At the same time I really hope that the MNR finds a way to be more responsive and timely in adjusting tag/validation numbers.

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With all due respect, I don't buy the 2 harsh winters being the principal cause of the deer population decline.

I lived long enough to have experienced more severe winters of past - harsh winters were the norm - but the deer populations still did well and increased over those years.

There are many more factors at play here.

Yes- like coyotes abounding.

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Originally Posted by Species8472

What we need is the MNR to spend some money on good science to get a handle on what and where the numbers actually are. Then based on the sound science make sound management decisions to best manage the population for whatever the goals may be. If that means cuts to whoever and wherever so be it. Most of the observations we as hunters make in the field, while valuable, are anecdotal for the most part. For example in 82a this year I saw more fawns, does and bucks than I have ever seen. Other guys a few concessions away didn't see squat - so who's opinion is valid? Who knows - we need a bunch of field experienced biologists on the ground and in the air to get a proper handle on things. Otherwise we are just guessing.

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They don't have the money and the resources, that's the sad part. MNR relies on hunter surveys and deer-vehicle collision numbers in S ONT. Hunters lie, collisions don't.
They also downplay the coyote role, I am not sure what's their agenda here....
I disagree with someone saying 'mother nature' will take care of the balance. This is extremely naive. Humans changed the balance forever. Besides, we don't want the deer to follow dinosaurs, do we ;) ?