Covid 2nd Wave....fact or fiction

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

Like was said before, most of those dying in LTC, have DNR orders. Many more seniors could have been saved if not for those orders.

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I don't think you comprehend what the purpose of the DNR is...it's to endure that they DO NOT survive if they get sicker. And they initiate it and sign it.

And You worked there, scary ..HaHa...

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I don't think you comprehend what the purpose of the DNR is...it's to endure that they DO NOT survive if they get sicker. And they initiate it and sign it.

And You worked there, scary ..HaHa...

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95% of the time it was at the family's request, not the residents, the family member with the POA has the final say. Do you put a DNR order on your 25 year old child with MS, most would not. Your 90 year old mother would be an easier decision.

DNR, really means don't try to do heroic measures to prolong life. You know how many times I did CPR on a 90 + person without a DNR order? To many. You would do CPR, and push their ribs right through to the bed. . The Paramedics would do CPR until they got into the ambulance then stop. Starting again when the doors opened at the hospital. DN Resuscitate, really means bringing back from the dead. If you saw someone in the process of choking you would save them. But if when you found them, they had already passed out and no longer breathing you would not initiate CPR.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I don't think you comprehend what the purpose of the DNR is...it's to endure that they DO NOT survive if they get sicker. And they initiate it and sign it.

And You worked there, scary ..HaHa...

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My mom is on that list ,it's scary when she has a surgery done that's for sure.

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With a DNR, some can not even have surgery as this would mean being intubated, and some people would not be able to be taken back off the line after they were on it. This can cause a major dilemma for medical staff as it might then push the envelope of an assisted suicide. All kinds of slippery slopes with a DNR.

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

95% of the time it was at the family's request, not the residents, the family member with the POA has the final say. Do you put a DNR order on your 25 year old child with MS, most would not. Your 90 year old mother would be an easier decision.

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

DNR, really means don't try to do heroic measures to prolong life. You know how many times I did CPR on a 90 + person without a DNR order? To many. You would do CPR, and push their ribs right through to the bed. . The Paramedics would do CPR until they got into the ambulance then stop. Starting again when the doors opened at the hospital. DN Resuscitate, really means bringing back from the dead. If you saw someone in the process of choking you would save them. But if when you found them, they had already passed out and no longer breathing you would not initiate CPR.

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Neither of those posts support your comment...quite the opposite.

A lot of homes require a DNR from the family as a condition of residence ....and families agree. So no, MORE seniors would have have been saved.

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

Like was said before, most of those dying in LTC, have DNR orders. Many more seniors could have been saved if not for those orders.

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And the legacy of the problems with Private LTC facilities rests with Jean Chrétien...always follow the money...:)

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Originally Posted by johnjyb

With a DNR, some can not even have surgery as this would mean being intubated, and some people would not be able to be taken back off the line after they were on it. This can cause a major dilemma for medical staff as it might then push the envelope of an assisted suicide. All kinds of slippery slopes with a DNR.

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She had heart surgery if she died during the process they were told to stop working . Kinda sucks but those are her wishes.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Neither of those posts support your comment...quite the opposite.

A lot of homes require a DNR from the family as a condition of residence ....and families agree. So no, MORE seniors would have have been saved.




And the legacy of the problems with Private LTC facilities rests with Jean Chrétien...always follow the money...:)

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I worked for the City of Toronto in one of 10 metro owned homes for over 30 years. I have never heard of a DNR order being needed before admission. It is suggested strongly by the Dr.s and all medical personal, but they cannot compel you sign one. When I worked at a LTC facility, about 90% of our home of 250 residents had one , but 10% did not. At every resident care conference which was held held twice yearly with all pertinent home personal present, the POA would be asked if a change of order was desired. At any time the POA could arrange a meeting to change the order.

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

I worked for the City of Toronto in one of 10 metro owned homes for over 30 years. I have never heard of a DNR order being needed before admission. It is suggested strongly by the Dr.s and all medical personal, but they cannot compel you sign one. When I worked at a LTC facility, about 90% of our home of 250 residents had one , but 10% did not. At every resident care conference which was held held twice yearly with all pertinent home personal present, the POA would be asked if a change of order was desired. At any time the POA could arrange a meeting to change the order.

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So again you're supporting the fact that DNR's are common, encouraged and sought after by LTC facilities...it's why so many residents died when they contracted Covid....they could NOT be saved, it was against theirs ( or their POA) wishes.

Will we ever have the stats to show how many would-could have been saved by intubation? Remember that they all had underlying conditions. I have seen the good, the bad and the ugly in LTC. It was a disaster waiting to happen.

It's not actually power of attorney that has the say. When you make out a will it is power of care . Two different things all together .

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Originally Posted by Tigboy 304

It's not actually power of attorney that has the say. When you make out a will it is power of care . Two different things all together .

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I had it for an aunt for about 20 years and at that time there were 2 things that i had:

Power of Attorney for Personal Care
Power of Attorney for Property

An individual can hand over one or both to a third party or if they so desire to different third parties, one for property and a different one for personal care.

Even if you have poa you can not carry out ones wishes unless you have power of care as well.

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Originally Posted by Tigboy 304

Even if you have poa you can not carry out ones wishes unless you have power of care as well.

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POA for Personal Care is the actual title. Power of Care is an abbreviated title.

POAPC let's you make any and all health care decisions.

There are two types of POA in Ontario. One for care one for property. But they are both considered to be POA.

https://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov....pacity/poa.php

If you have no one to make those decisions the government takes over and does it for you. Many more have their decisions made by the government than you would think.

It seems CTV is full of sh**, I wonder how they really came up with the 98.5%, did they assume anyone over 60 was in a long term care or something else stupid...


https://torontosun.com/opinion/colum...-to-act-wisely
"We know that hospitals are a major source of COVID spread. So are half of those listed as COVID patients actually people who were admitted for heart operations or other issues and then tested positive?

We only recently began to learn about comorbidities among those who have died after Alberta began releasing data. The average age of people dying in that province is 82 and 75% of those who died had three or more underlying conditions."
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That could be due to suicides and opioid overdoses, two things we know are on the rise but which there is little national information on.

We need more information in order to ensure the public is fully informed and not subject to charlatans peddling outright lies.

There are claims going around social media that fewer than 200 people across Canada have died outside of long-term care homes. That’s factually incorrect.

In Ontario alone, more than 1,300 people have died with COVID outside of nursing homes.




Now, were those 1,300 in other types of long term care, what was the criteria...Facts.... I agree with Brian here... we need facts and it seems that many of the media are just making s*** up! They leave big box stores open and send huge police numbers to a small BBQ, CTV says one thing but doesn't say how it got its numbers, I took some time on StatsCan and can't find much beyond the basics.... Brian I generally trust but is the rest of the media just plain stupid, deliberately misleading or just off the scale incompetent and just say what they think will cause a stir...

They should of have another place besides the hospital.

To bad our brain dead government doesn't understand. Among a few other places that should of been top priority .

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Originally Posted by mosquito

I agree with Brian here... we need facts and it seems that many of the media are just making s*** up! .

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I've being seeing this for months now, they are using numbers that have been contrived to instil fear. They increase testing then say "look the number of case are increasing" ...well Duh.

People caught on so they cut the testing numbers down and then only test people who are symptomatic. Then they say the positivy numbers are increasing...well Duh again.

The whole 2nd wave was a farce from the get go...the Hospital and ICU numbers never indicated a wide spread pandemic. Today Ottawa with a population of 1.2 million has only 24 people in the hospital and 1 in the ICU.

We've "been sold a bill of goods" by this Government ..and we are now $400 Billion in debt to prevent a virus that has only killed 11,791 across Canada (which is 0.031 of the population) and most of them were seniors already in poor health waiting to die in an LTC.

I can't help but wonder how that debt will be paid off...

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I've being seeing this for months now, they are using numbers that have been contrived to instil fear

I can't help but wonder how that debt will be paid off...

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What debt, the liberals budget will balance itself, so soon you forgot?

Who doesn’t know someone who was in debt from the time they got their first credit card until they died? Never paid off the debt but lived like they had money. The NWO will take care of all the debts. I hear China sends billions here every year. Paying cash money and buying all our stuff. Banff. Vancouver.

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

Who doesn’t know someone who was in debt from the time they got their first credit card until they died? Never paid off the debt but lived like they had money. The NWO will take care of all the debts. I hear China sends billions here every year. Paying cash money and buying all our stuff. Banff. Vancouver.

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You speak of that as its something to be proud of. Poor Canada! You seem to like all that Chinese money coming into the country. By all means feel free to move to China and you'll see a lot more of that Chinese currency you seem so fond of.

I am not proud of it and neitherare any of the many other countries that China is buying up a piece at a time. The only way to prevent it is as a group of countries get together and refuse to deal with China. Sending nothing and getting nothing back from them. We would have to suffer for awhile until we would get up to speed on many things we now import from them. I bet in most homes 80 % of the ‘ stuff ‘ comes from China. That would take a world wide effort otherwise they will just deal with someone else. They have made other economies dependent on them, shear numbers .They have about 1 in 8 of all people on earth.

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

I am not proud of it and neitherare any of the many other countries that China is buying up a piece at a time. The only way to prevent it is as a group of countries get together and refuse to deal with China. Sending nothing and getting nothing back from them. We would have to suffer for awhile until we would get up to speed on many things we now import from them. I bet in most homes 80 % of the ‘ stuff ‘ comes from China. That would take a world wide effort otherwise they will just deal with someone else. They have made other economies dependent on them, shear numbers .They have about 1 in 8 of all people on earth.

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China is the oldest society on Earth. They didn't survive all these centuries by being stupid and backward,although,when we look at the every day common people,it gives one pause to think otherwise. Canada has a long history with China over the last century and a half. Some very prominent Canadians retired to China (Maurice Strong,Dr. Norman Bethune). When the lease on Hong Kong was about to expire,hundreds of thousands of Chinese citixens immigrated to Canada bringing staggering amounts of money with them. It would be extremely difficult for our government to suddenly turn off the tap without serious repercussions which could be very detrimental to us. Erin O'Toole has been raising the alarm about Chinese involvement in Canadian foreign and domestic affairs for some time,now. We need to really pay heed and figure a way to deal with them without cutting off our nose to spite our face. I'm not sure the current government is up to the task.

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Originally Posted by Tigboy 304

You speak of that as its something to be proud of. Poor Canada! You seem to like all that Chinese money coming into the country. By all means feel free to move to China and you'll see a lot more of that Chinese currency you seem so fond of.

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Maybe when you finally realise the Conservative Captains of Industry are who gave the Chinese the power they have today and money.The big corporations shipping jobs to China to improve the bottom line and boost their own high salaries.Yes my friend Globalization,free market economies,Reaganomics,Thatcherism, all screwed over the middle class and workers.The so called trickle down effect did not happen,we had the Wall Street banks ripping off everybody and now a dog eat dog society.Where you see the rise of populism and an entity like Trump,stroking fear and division,racism.....

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

I am not proud of it and neitherare any of the many other countries that China is buying up a piece at a time. The only way to prevent it is as a group of countries get together and refuse to deal with China. Sending nothing and getting nothing back from them. We would have to suffer for awhile until we would get up to speed on many things we now import from them. I bet in most homes 80 % of the ‘ stuff ‘ comes from China. That would take a world wide effort otherwise they will just deal with someone else. They have made other economies dependent on them, shear numbers .They have about 1 in 8 of all people on earth.

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You are definitely on to something there but I have to ask, did the doctors switch out your meds? Your whole idea there is what Trump was trying to start in the [emoji631]. Lol, friendly jab....

We have the power to make all the sheeit we buy from China but not under this "shut down breathing" government. It does not matter what you touch, oil and gas are required to get it to the shelves and we can't utilize Canadian oil and gas under our current dictator.

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Originally Posted by oaknut

You are definitely on to something there but I have to ask, did the doctors switch out your meds? Your whole idea there is what Trump was trying to start in the [emoji631]. Lol, friendly jab....

We have the power to make all the sheeit we buy from China but not under this "shut down breathing" government. It does not matter what you touch, oil and gas are required to get it to the shelves and we can't utilize Canadian oil and gas under our current dictator.

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Do you ever look at the television and maybe just wonder about Global Warming? In India the air pollution is so bad that it is allowing the Covid to actually kill more people as their lungs are so compromised.New Zealand has declared a global warming emergency, Australia is burning, with Sydney recording a record 40 degree overnight temperature,ice caps melting.
Your not going to shut down China by exporting oil,gas and coal to that country already one of the biggest polluters on the planet for profit.The Chinese economy would grind to a fast halt without imports of fossil fuels.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Do you ever look at the television and maybe just wonder about Global Warming? In India the air pollution is so bad that it is allowing the Covid to actually kill more people as their lungs are so compromised.New Zealand has declared a global warming emergency, Australia is burning, with Sydney recording a record 40 degree overnight temperature,ice caps melting.
Your not going to shut down China by exporting oil,gas and coal to that country already one of the biggest polluters on the planet for profit.The Chinese economy would grind to a fast halt without imports of fossil fuels.

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Even you are on to something there Gilroy. Only thing is, I said nothing about selling to China. We need to produce our own gas and oil, for Canada! Not to export. We need to keep our resources in house.

Good for India, They did this to themselves! Its time to stop punishing ourselves for the faults of others. Look to Canada, not the rest of the world, we can't even properly manage our own country, what the hell business do we have meddling in other countries affairs. We need to step back, deal with our own problems and regulate ourselves in a realistic manner. We need to shut off all trade with big polluters.

But what would I know, as you said in another thread, I'm just an idiot.

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Another inconvenient truth....

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Team Canada Mission in Canadian politics is a public-relations mission led by the Prime Minister of Canada, the Minister of International Trade along with the leaders of the provinces and territories of Canada.

The purpose of the Mission is to promote Canadian business development in order to increase trade and investment.

The first Team Canada Mission was made in 1994 led by PM Jean Chrétien (Liberal)

The Canadian Trade Commissioner Service lists the following as having been "Team Canada" mission (led by the Prime Minister):

February 2001 China (Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong) Focus Sector(s): Multi-sector

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now this is what we import:

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Canada imports from China was US$56.53 Billion during 2019, according to the United Nations COMTRADE database on international trade. Canada imports from China - data, historical chart and statistics - was last updated on December of 2020.

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And we exported :

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Canada exports to China was US$17.49 Billion during 2019,

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I think we got screwed, thanks to a Liberal Government.

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Originally Posted by oaknut

Even you are on to something there Gilroy. Only thing is, I said nothing about selling to China. We need to produce our own gas and oil, for Canada! Not to export. We need to keep our resources in house.

Good for India, They did this to themselves! Its time to stop punishing ourselves for the faults of others. Look to Canada, not the rest of the world, we can't even properly manage our own country, what the hell business do we have meddling in other countries affairs. We need to step back, deal with our own problems and regulate ourselves in a realistic manner. We need to shut off all trade with big polluters.

But what would I know, as you said in another thread, I'm just an idiot.

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Not much into name calling please post the post where I used this insult to you?

I am not on any meds, no need to change anything.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Where you see the rise of populism and an entity like Trump,stroking fear and division,racism.....

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Division and racism is exactly what Biden is all about, supporting groups like Antifa, BLM. With 2600 people dying a day from covid with Biden president, there's nothing to fear at all...lol

Some more information

Italy shows alot of reports of early covid 19 patients 15 months ago or in September 2019.

11 percent of the thousand volunteer had antibodies before the first cases was ever reported.


Who says it wasn't around last year?

https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2020-11...P8s/index.html

China has dated back to November as well means it was in Canada last year. Only takes a day for it get here from China.

Also the USA is digging deeper into the cases last year.

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More possible covid spreading around the world before it was known.
https://www.livescience.com/coronavi...r-thought.html

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Originally Posted by fishfood

More possible covid spreading around the world before it was known.
https://www.livescience.com/coronavi...r-thought.html

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A good journalist would have identified the race of those that tested positive......or was told not to print it. Problem with media these days most articles lack 'all' the information and raise more questions .

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Still, "it's not totally outside the realm of possibility," that the virus circulated in Italy earlier than thought. because there is a lot of travel back and forth between China and Italy, especially northern Italy, he said.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

A good journalist would have identified the race of those that tested positive......or was told not to print it. Problem with media these days most articles lack 'all' the information and raise more questions .

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Definitely raises more questions.

Wonder why Canada isn't looking back at older samples. No time I guess ,they don't even have time to complain about the gun violence lol.



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More news going back into Oct November.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKBN22I1E3

Even Wikipedia has it listed that studies show the beginning to be around since October November 2019. Can't always trust this source .

But the link above is asking all countries to back track, as many places to have proof of its existence well before China discovered it. Only time will tell if it went around Canada for months before the pandemic.



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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Not much into name calling please post the post where I used this insult to you?

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Yeah, I don't have that kind of time to dig through a couple thousand posts. It was when you said anyone who thought masks didn't work were idiots.

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He is correct Gilroy you did say that.

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Originally Posted by oaknut

Yeah, I don't have that kind of time to dig through a couple thousand posts. It was when you said anyone who thought masks didn't work were idiots.

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

He is correct Gilroy you did say that.

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Yup....

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

The main difference and I hate to point out the obvious to you is that number one the Virus does not care who you vote for,but anyone who keeps throwing out there that masks are somehow not needed or do no good is just an idiot period.

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Originally Posted by oaknut

Yeah, I don't have that kind of time to dig through a couple thousand posts. It was when you said anyone who thought masks didn't work were idiots.

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I will not walk back on that one,in light of what the experts are advising one would have to be an idiot not to wear a mask.I suppose I am guilty after a fashion of name calling but not to you personally but collectively to all who do not wear a mask.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

I will not walk back on that one,in light of what the experts are advising one would have to be an idiot not to wear a mask.I suppose I am guilty after a fashion of name calling but not to you personally but collectively to all who do not wear a mask.

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Some oversensitive underperformers take a collective insult very personally.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

A good journalist would have identified the race of those that tested positive......or was told not to print it. Problem with media these days most articles lack 'all' the information and raise more questions .

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Is media controlled ... yes, it is! I was at a meeting in Oakville in Sep 2017 where Morneau tried to convince small business owners that they were naughty and were avoiding taxes ... nonetheless in the Labor Union offices (likely a welcome meeting spot for the Liberals). Questions from the public were limited to 2 minutes (Q&A) so basically there was no time to get any good answers from Morneau except for the blah, blah immaterial rhetoric. After the meeting, ALL the media were invited to a "back room", public was not allowed in ...

Anyhow, the next day, I googled the event to see if any of the news had published photos that I could find my team in ... and wow, did that open my eyes.

I found WORD FOR WORD, beginning to end, copy/paste exact article from multiple news corps ... obviously the were told what to write when they went to the "back room". Either that or news reporters are now lazy and allowed to plagiarize. Here are the articles so you can see for yourself ... all of them for example have the SAME starting paragraph ... "Canada's finance minister got a grilling Friday from taxpayers who are boiling mad about the Liberal government's proposed tax changes for small businesses."

Check them out for yourself:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/morn...cache=lbaijlxg

https://nationalpost.com/news/politi...s-turns-heated

https://www.insidehalton.com/news-st...n-tax-changes/

https://www.toronto.com/news-story/7...n-tax-changes/

https://financialpost.com/pmn/busine...s-turns-heated

Oh I know for a fact there are often given the text (by the PMO) of the article to print.

But some smaller papers just print the article as it appears on the Associate Press telex release ( I know I know, I'm dating myself HaHa.)

Well almost 2 weeks into the lock down and numbers are not heading down yet .
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/mobile/to...ases-1.5212983

In Alberta they are calling for the federal government to create field medical centers. A little late but I'm sure that will be the next step Ontario makes as well.


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Originally Posted by MikePal

Oh I know for a fact there are often given the text (by the PMO) of the article to print.

But some smaller papers just print the article as it appears on the Associate Press telex release ( I know I know, I'm dating myself HaHa.)

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Oh wow, so am I reading too much into this, or is the Associate Press a tool which allows the government to control what media presents ... basically if we see the same thing being printed everywhere ... instead of blaming it on government control ... they just say oh they copied it from the Associate Press??

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Originally Posted by Badenoch

Some oversensitive underperformers take a collective insult very personally.

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If the shoe fits......

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Originally Posted by MarkB

Is media controlled ... yes, it is! I was at a meeting in Oakville in Sep 2017 where Morneau tried to convince small business owners that they were naughty and were avoiding taxes ... nonetheless in the Labor Union offices (likely a welcome meeting spot for the Liberals). Questions from the public were limited to 2 minutes (Q&A) so basically there was no time to get any good answers from Morneau except for the blah, blah immaterial rhetoric. After the meeting, ALL the media were invited to a "back room", public was not allowed in ...

Anyhow, the next day, I googled the event to see if any of the news had published photos that I could find my team in ... and wow, did that open my eyes.

I found WORD FOR WORD, beginning to end, copy/paste exact article from multiple news corps ... obviously the were told what to write when they went to the "back room". Either that or news reporters are now lazy and allowed to plagiarize. Here are the articles so you can see for yourself ... all of them for example have the SAME starting paragraph ... "Canada's finance minister got a grilling Friday from taxpayers who are boiling mad about the Liberal government's proposed tax changes for small businesses."

Check them out for yourself:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/morn...cache=lbaijlxg

https://nationalpost.com/news/politi...s-turns-heated

https://www.insidehalton.com/news-st...n-tax-changes/

https://www.toronto.com/news-story/7...n-tax-changes/

https://financialpost.com/pmn/busine...s-turns-heated

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Mark, look at the byline on all the articles. They ARE all the same because all the papers used the Canadian Press article rather than writing their own

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Originally Posted by C.A. in TO

Mark, look at the byline on all the articles. They ARE all the same because all the papers used the Canadian Press article rather than writing their own

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Perhaps you need to explain to him how a wire service works.

[QUOTE=fishfood;1134373]Well almost 2 weeks into the lock down and numbers are not heading down yet .

And you shouldn't expect them to. Its like stopping a ship. Shut the engines down and that monster will still run for miles before you even notice a change in speed.

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Originally Posted by sawbill

Its like stopping a ship. Shut the engines down and that monster will still run for miles before you even notice a change in speed.

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Best thing for that is torpedoes or an iceberg. Not sure what the pandemic equivalent would be.

[QUOTE=sawbill;1134489]

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Originally Posted by fishfood

Well almost 2 weeks into the lock down and numbers are not heading down yet .

And you shouldn't expect them to. Its like stopping a ship. Shut the engines down and that monster will still run for miles before you even notice a change in speed.

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Oh I knew they wouldn't in the flu season .

Was reading an article the other day that said the first Canadian lockdown accually worked. I went back to try and find it but could not find it. Of course the lockdown slowed the spread it also naturally died down just like the normal flu does in March and April and May .

During the flu season it is less likely to work with a partial lockdown. York region hospital's filling up a lockdown will coming soon they already have a positive rate higher than Toronto when they shut down.

It was all a trap this 30 day shutdown will be all winter.

The mask exceptions are no longer a thing. A man in Durham was refused entry into Costco they tried to take his membership then flagged it . The reason he is at Costco is to get his medication witch exempts him from wearing a mask.

Covid 19 officer's are out in full force last weekend giving out tickets in York region. Can't wait for mine as I still shop with the better half or take a kid . That's supposed be a big no no only 1 member of your house hold is supposed to do the shopping.



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