What is considered a humane kill shot ?

Maybe you ALL are correct.... Maybe a bullet is designed to "expand" optimally @ 2200-1500 fps which might correlate from 150 to 300 yds.
So possibly not much expansion at 2600(MV) but more so at the distance equivalent to 2200-1500 fps. Making all of you correct.

Also just a point to consider, blood pressure drop and or loss is a quick "DRT" indicator regardless of whether actual VOLUME of blood loss has occurred. For example a shot causing DRT visually may in fact be a sudden drop in BP causing unconscious incapacitation until the "bloodletting, bleed out" completes.

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

I took a doe this year with my Savage ML and a PR 260 grain Dead center bullet at 70 yards. It was a clean shot. Both Lungs and the top of the heart destroyed. The doe dropped on the spot, tail twitched for a few seconds and that was it. Entry wound was 3.5 inches and exit was 2 inches. Two ribs were gone on entry and one gone on exit.

I have made the exact same shot on a buck at 125 yards with my Savage 220 leaving a 1" entry and 2" exit, heart and lungs gone but it still ran 80 yards....

I have no idea why some drop and others run but I know I did my part!

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3.5in entry wound? Holy crap, did you clip a tree first? In reality the entry hole "should" be the size of the bullet, unless for some reason there is a mushroom ahead of time. I have seen deer after they were hit by a bullet that clipped a tree first, nasty stuff.

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Originally Posted by skypilot

Maybe you ALL are correct.... Maybe a bullet is designed to "expand" optimally @ 2200-1500 fps which might correlate from 150 to 300 yds.
So possibly not much expansion at 2600(MV) but more so at the distance equivalent to 2200-1500 fps. Making all of you correct.

Also just a point to consider, blood pressure drop and or loss is a quick "DRT" indicator regardless of whether actual VOLUME of blood loss has occurred. For example a shot causing DRT visually may in fact be a sudden drop in BP causing unconscious incapacitation until the "bloodletting, bleed out" completes.

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"Maybe a bullet is designed to "expand" optimally @ 2200-1500 fps which might correlate from 150 to 300 yds."

That's actually how most bullets do expand. However at the velocities below the lower end they do not expand, and at velocity of above the upper end, they over expand (or explode as it it's commonly called). It would take a real bit of engineering to design a bullet that would not expand at excessive velocities, but still expand properly at its normal velocities - but first they'd have to invent the physics to support that.

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

"Maybe a bullet is designed to "expand" optimally @ 2200-1500 fps which might correlate from 150 to 300 yds."

That's actually how most bullets do expand. However at the velocities below the lower end they do not expand, and at velocity of above the upper end, they over expand (or explode as it it's commonly called). It would take a real bit of engineering to design a bullet that would not expand at excessive velocities, but still expand properly at its normal velocities - but first they'd have to invent the physics to support that.

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I know that the Barnes bullet had a really large range of fps where it would open "optimally" but then again I heard that under that "optimal" speed they are essentially FMJ.

This 30-06 was a Remington Core-Lok and trust me, it opened, a big hole.

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

"Bloodletting thus causing shock". This is hypovolemic shock, exactly the same shock as is induced by a broadhead and is commonly known as "bleeding to death".

All I have to read about your hornady tech is " 3006, as an example, shot at a deer under 50 yards will not open enough to cause enough damage to vitals to create the shock required. " to know that a) he does not have a clue what he is talking about, and b) it is all BS.

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Maybe instead of calling me a liar, you should call Hornady yourself.

This past deer season a friend dropped a deer at about 60 yds. The bullet was a 220 Grain Speer Hot Cor. When we got the deer back to camp we were certain the entry wound was in fact the exit. There was a 4 inch hole in the side of the rib cage. No question it was a good shot taken in good conditions. Certainly it would meet the criteria for anyone to say it was a humane shot.
After some further reading and testing it was clear that though the .358 Win rounds that he had hand loaded met all the specs the load was simply too fast for that bullet at that distance.
We clocked the speed at the muzzle near 2500 fps. This is nearly 100 fps faster than the loads given by Hodgdon. I suspect the extra speed was a result of too much crimp on the bullet during the reload.
The deer dropped just about instantly and we were able to find a small exit wound from a fragment later when we dressed it out.
All things were in place to make this a safe and humane kill - it was quick but not optimum. The point being that it serves to expand the discussion on what ingredients are needed to the mix of "What is considered a humane kill shot?" since a more severe bullet explosion on the hide could have easily resulted in an animal with a bad wound running off into the woods.

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Originally Posted by Blackwolf

Maybe instead of calling me a liar, you should call Hornady yourself.

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I've been shooting hornady's for 34 years now, so I know a bit about them.
I don't have to call him up to know what he has told you is wrong.
You cannot make a bullet stick together by making it go faster than its intended expansion speed. Doesn't work.
Do you not have enough of a basic grasp of physics to understand how bullet speed is related to expansion? Faster = more. Slower = less. During some range of speed for a particular bullet there will be ideal or expected expansion. You cannot make it expand less, by making it go faster.

I sure wouldn't waste my time asking a guy with that poor of understanding of his work *anything*.

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Originally Posted by skypilot

Maybe you ALL are correct.... Maybe a bullet is designed to "expand" optimally @ 2200-1500 fps which might correlate from 150 to 300 yds.
So possibly not much expansion at 2600(MV) but more so at the distance equivalent to 2200-1500 fps. Making all of you correct.
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You are getting it backwards. A bullet designed to expand at 2200-1500 will over expand at higher velocities. So one travelling 2600 will be far more likely to come apart at the closer range/higher velocity.

To support Werner's statement, I have a dead chronograph to show for my efforts in trying to get a bullet to go faster. I loaded (not above safe maximum IAW Hornady Reload Manual 9th Edition) a 180 gr SST 30-06. The bullet came apart after leaving the barrel and destroyed my chronograph. I don't need Hornady to tell me the story since I still have the evidence.
With that, I called them to inquire about the 125 gr SST since they are new and therefore the 9th Edition does not provide load data for them.
Hornady Tech advised using the data for 130 Gr and working up to a good load from there. He was very emphatic about the speed in stating that it was not designed to go above 3400 fps.
Point being, laws of physics dictate here - higher speed is higher expansion. It is exactly the same for anti-armor rounds and large caliber ships guns. But that is a whole different discussion thread.
Suffice to say that a bullet going too fast will in fact blow up on the hide simply due to penetration associated with surface tension. Much the same why people die from falling into the water from great heights. The human body simply ruptures on the surface since the water at that speed is like concrete...

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

I've been shooting hornady's for 34 years now, so I know a bit about them.
I don't have to call him up to know what he has told you is wrong.
You cannot make a bullet stick together by making it go faster than its intended expansion speed. Doesn't work.
Do you not have enough of a basic grasp of physics to understand how bullet speed is related to expansion? Faster = more. Slower = less. During some range of speed for a particular bullet there will be ideal or expected expansion. You cannot make it expand less, by making it go faster.


I sure wouldn't waste my time asking a guy with that poor of understanding of his work *anything*.

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I'm sorry you feel that way.

However it is obvious that a humane kill involves more than putting a bullet in the boiler room but also requires the right bullet at the right distance with the proper energy to kill and put in the right spot.