8 mth Lab growling

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Originally Posted by welsh

With respect to basic problem behaviour in dogs -- guarding "their" things, etc. -- there are well established indirect approaches that are used by various trainers whether they subscribe to dominance theory or not.

You make the dog wait to go out the front door. You don't let him go up the stairs until you do. You make him sit and wait for his food. You make him sit before you pet him. Etc. Etc. By doing these things you fix problems in the relationship with the dog without having to confront aggressive behaviour directly and possibly provoke escalating aggression.

Responding to some unwanted behaviour by immediately putting the dog on command and making him sit for you, rather than rolling him, is another example. I like doggy pushups: sit - lie down - sit - lie down - sit - lie down - sit. Do you remember who I am now, private?

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OK , now were getting somewhere . Your right , its not about always going into attack mode as a handler just to impose dominance because that can escalate on both sides . I find it's more about reading and understanding the body language and to diffuse it before it even occurs . Sometimes it just takes a firm voice , sometimes firm voice and slight tap to make the dog snap out of it . Actually this works best more often than not . Even stare downs work in the correct time and place . Then again if under a direct attack the flip and pin till they calm down is, also correct . Like as has been mentioned its understanding the type of aggression and why that needs to be addressed . The biggest thing to do though is get control . I think an actual direct unprovoked attack from a pup is a rarity, and if it happens your options are limited .

TD

Humans have smarts (are smarter than dogs, at least most are) meaning, we should be able to use our brains instead of physically having to dominate a dog to train it. Unbalanced dogs that are not well bred are a different story however. Sometimes wires get crossed in which case an expert is needed.

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Originally Posted by 400bigbear

Here is one of my own scenarios that I had issues with my lab till the last year she hunted and am looking forward to how you would have dealt with it and do you consider it direct or indirect pressure . Misty had an issue every year on opening day to break to the first shot and fall of the bird . I always worked her before the day and she was steady as a rock just not then or after if I didn't use the correction . I would tie her to something solid and like always she would bust but when she would hit the end of the anchored rope at full tilt she would flip herself at times . After that bust she would be steady for the rest of the year and at most require just a word or low pop on the whistle if she got ansy . . How would you have handled that Krakadawn and do you consider this direct or indirect pressure ?

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Not Kraka but crackerd here, 400BB - surely, you remember from retriever field trials the old adage that there are two kinds of dogs, them that break and them that are going to break... (Wait a minute, how long since y'all have had fliers in trials up there? - maybe breaking isn't an issue in Canadian FTs...)

The "shock" tether you used in the duck blind is pretty d*mned effective, regardless whether you call it direct or indirect pressure. But effective and safe - as in a dog maybe breaking its neck by going lickety-split for a fallen duck - are two different things. Believe I would've put it down to the simple fact that dogs err too, just like the rest of us, and might have trained a little harder with or without the e-collar for steadiness in the blind the next time out.

Remember the whoa post that pointing dog trainers used, maybe still use? After I saw what it did to my dog the first time she "encountered" it, I said never again. Didn't you say you also had trained pointers? - bet you know what I'm referring to re the whoa post with the sudden jolt to the dog's spine and hips as it breaks on a bird. And the dog may be so birdy that the same thing would happen the next time and the next, and then you find you've got a dog that has no wheels left for the field if you ever were able to get it steady.

Anyhow, bottom line for me is the dominance or alpha roll is so yesterday's news with gundogs, especially retrievers. Yeah, 25 years ago before retriever training made the quantum leap, maybe. But never again if you've cultivated the respect from your dog by doing what Welsh has intimated above. Welsh, carry on with your line of thought; says here it's valid prep work for whatever advanced training someone sets out to impart to their dog.

Now Kraka's turn - if he can get his mind off...Golden retrievers!!!

MG

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Originally Posted by crackerd

Not Kraka but crackerd here, 400BB - surely, you remember from retriever field trials the old adage that there are two kinds of dogs, them that break and them that are going to break... (Wait a minute, how long since y'all have had fliers in trials up there? - maybe breaking isn't an issue in Canadian FTs...)

The "shock" tether you used in the duck blind is pretty d*mned effective, regardless whether you call it direct or indirect pressure. But effective and safe - as in a dog maybe breaking its neck by going lickety-split for a fallen duck - are two different things. Believe I would've put it down to the simple fact that dogs err too, just like the rest of us, and might have trained a little harder with or without the e-collar for steadiness in the blind the next time out.

Remember the whoa post that pointing dog trainers used, maybe still use? After I saw what it did to my dog the first time she "encountered" it, I said never again. Didn't you say you also had trained pointers? - bet you know what I'm referring to re the whoa post with the sudden jolt to the dog's spine and hips as it breaks on a bird. And the dog may be so birdy that the same thing would happen the next time and the next, and then you find you've got a dog that has no wheels left for the field if you ever were able to get it steady.

Anyhow, bottom line for me is the dominance or alpha roll is so yesterday's news with gundogs, especially retrievers. Yeah, 25 years ago before retriever training made the quantum leap, maybe. But never again if you've cultivated the respect from your dog by doing what Welsh has intimated above. Welsh, carry on with your line of thought; says here it's valid prep work for whatever advanced training someone sets out to impart to their dog.

Now Kraka's turn - if he can get his mind off...Golden retrievers!!!

MG

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To anyone reading this post please don't confuse this reference to a whoa post with the whoa post I refer to in other threads. They are not the same thing.

As far as indirect pressure goes that is dog training 101 and can be incredibly effective. What welsh referred as far as who goes out the door first etc is correct and I don't have 8 month old pups growling at me because I put that in place the day they come home.

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Originally Posted by 400bigbear

I think an actual direct unprovoked attack from a pup is a rarity, and if it happens your options are limited .

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If it comes down to an actual attack, out of the blue, then you've already blown it as a trainer. Whatever the issue is should be corrected long before that point. And as Jakezilla just pointed out, an ounce of prevention ... if you maintain a good relationship with the dog then these issues shouldn't come up. That's why I asked how much training work the OP's dog is doing, right off the bat.

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Originally Posted by Jakezilla

To anyone reading this post please don't confuse this reference to a whoa post with the whoa post I refer to in other threads. They are not the same thing.

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Jakezilla's absolutely correct - his whoa post is controlled by the handler. The older ones of the same name gave the dog enough proverbial rope to hang - or seriously hurt - itself. The slack rope was tied to a post and then the other end looped in a hitch around the dog's hindquarters. Then a bird usually a pigeon was placed just beyond the length of the rope. Next, the breaking or chasing dog was introduced into the equation...not pretty.

Jakezilla's right - it's a different and unthreatening training apparatus altogether with humans having been introduced into the whoa post equation on the other end of the rope. The whoa post method he references is kinder and gentler, because it enables the handler to have kinder and gentler control of their training.

MG

LOL crackerd . No I don't train those crazy pointers beyond some basic obedience as a rule although I did straighten out my sis weimaraner . . I think this dominance /alpha theory gets confused maybe by how it is articulated . To me it means RESPECT and what I adhere too and follow . My dogs have always respected me but on occassion haven't other people just by little things they do or have done .Nothing serious such as a bite . To some it's ok but to me I have expectations after much time and effort for the dog to be obedient FIRST and above all .

I've come up with my own ways on how to handle some things and some of it relates to a book I read many,many years ago by James Lamb Free . I also don't ask for respect from my dog . I demand it , so maybe that's how I confused Welsh's post or I disagree with it if his opinion differs from that . Why do I demand RESPECT . ? Well for starters I have built trust up and that trust goes both ways to a certain degree but I'm always in charge .

I'm sure you ,jakezilla, krakadawn, etc know that feeling where you know exactly how a dog is going to react in a given situation just by watching body signs . I think it's something you either have or don't because it is a feeling and sense . I can't explain it but it's there . Just like with horses . I could be blindfolded and if a horse goes to step on my foot . my foot will move before it happens although I have been stepped on under a stress situation . LOL


Yeah I hear you about them Goldens . LOL I'm at the other end of the spectrum with this Springer . LOL Sometimes we think a change is good but take it from me it always isn't . LOL


And Jakezilla , I don't have 8 month old pups growling at me either .


TD

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Originally Posted by welsh

If it comes down to an actual attack, out of the blue, then you've already blown it as a trainer. Whatever the issue is should be corrected long before that point. And as Jakezilla just pointed out, an ounce of prevention ... if you maintain a good relationship with the dog then these issues shouldn't come up. That's why I asked how much training work the OP's dog is doing, right off the bat.

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Your right Welsh . I've never had it come up with my dogs but I do know how I would deal with it from somebody elses dog placed with me to deal with the issue . Don't get defensive . This is not my first rodeo nor do I want you to cry with tears of laughter . I also opined and I want to see the OP's dog in action and will before I say what I think he should do as my first post in thread stated .

TD

Rick,

I assume from your post that he's a male? This behavior seems out of the ordinary for a lab. Growing up the father of my best friend bred champion labs and I don't recall having seen that kind of behavior except for 1 that he had. You couldn't get anywhere near her when she had pups. The others you could and even handle the pups.

This seems more like the behavior you encounter with the guard dog breeds which are far more aggressive by nature. I had a few issues with my German shepherd when he was around that age. He was a male and wanted to be the alpha. I used to make him sit in the back seat of my truck. On 2 separate occasions he jumped into the front seat, then growled and snarled at me when I tried to get him back into the backseat. Each time I backhanded him in the side of the muzzle, not hard enough to hurt him, but enough to let him know that he wasn't going to get away with it. after the second incident, it never happened again. I used to work with him in a park across the road every night after work. I ended up with a 125 lb. German shepherd that could be walked off lead, controlled by voice command and was gentle around other people. My father had German shepherds when I was young and told me how to handle them. With guard dog breeds you have to show them whose boss at an early age or you won't be able to control them when they are fully grown.

I would expect this type of behaviour out of a German Shepherd, Doberman, Rottweiler etc., but not a lab. My buddy's father once told me he liked labs because they don't challenge you where as the guard dog breeds will. You may have to show him some tough love and by that I'm not advocating beating him as that only makes things worse. There are ways you can hit a dog without hurting it that will get their attention. The method I used was to place my left hand under his muzzle, raise his head until it was level with the ground, place the middle and forefinger of my right hand together and give him a sharp tap with my 2 fingers on the top of his muzzle. This doesn't hurt them, but they hate it worse than getting hit. We were shown this in obedience class.

Roe+

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Originally Posted by Roe+

I would expect this type of behaviour out of a German Shepherd, Doberman, Rottweiler etc., but not a lab. My buddy's father once told me he liked labs because they don't challenge you where as the guard dog breeds will.
Roe+

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More old school myths.