Mike Pal
For close range work and if you can reproduce that accuracy off the bench maybe not so critical. Out of curiosity at what range did you shoot your target?
Ed
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Mike Pal
For close range work and if you can reproduce that accuracy off the bench maybe not so critical. Out of curiosity at what range did you shoot your target?
Ed
That was at 50yd Ed...getting ready for the ML hunt. My tree stand and ground blind have a limited distance in the bush of 75 yds, most deer are shot under 30yds. Hunting accuracy is the size of the heart, so an 1" isn't an issue. More than doable with pretty much any muzzle loader.
That was in a squeaky clean, cold barrel and my first shot of the day so pretty hard to identify which variable results in the 1st bullet to pull slightly to the left. It's consistent and easy to compensate for or adjust out with a scope for hunting.
A primary responsibly of a sabot is to create a gas seal, being that they are 'plastic' I would think that would do that better in a 'warm' barrel. It's never concerned me enough to prove it out on a bench rest test. Like I said I earlier, it may just be me warming up and getting more comfortable or the barrel becoming more fouled or the barrel heating up. But the groupings tighten up the longer I shoot and my shoulder holds out. Just proves the scope and rifle are aligned and zeroed, the gun likes the load and produces a tight group and because I practice enough to confirm that, I know what to expect when I'm out hunting.
Fifty yards won't tell you a whole lot with regard to barrel heating of the sabot.
I had a ten gauge semi that would produce a group much similar to the one you showed at fifty yards except for the flier and it was a smooth bore shooting plain Jane slugs. At 100 yards it was about a six inch group.
The sabot is what puts the spin on the bullet. If it gets warm it does a crap job. With a smokeless MZ you get more heat but you also get more speed and pressure so sabot failure can rear its ugly head.
Which is perfectly acceptable for Hunting with a 'slug' gun or ML for that matter....Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
Mike Pal
Thanks for your answer that puts a better perspective on the picture.
The range you’re working at compared to the range some of us are capable of shooting is a fair distance apart. The longer the range the more critical the care for loading components has to be taken into consideration especially the welfare of the sabot.
I can see where this discussion is headed with 2-different viewpoints and criteria’s.
We can’t force our idealism on each other but the reader now has 2-options to explore and find out for themselves what is the best.
Ed
That's always been the rub in these discussions Ed....your a benchrest shooter with a goal of tight accuracies and good groups at long ranges. And where the same mechanisms affecting the bullet ballistics are at play, the methodology for a hunter are quite different, as are the goals.Quote:
Originally Posted by ET1
As you pointed out, it's the 1st shot that counts for the hunter and he's taking it while leaning against a tree, with elevated breathing, rapid pulse (excitement of the kill) at ranges normally in the sub 100 yd range. Add to that, it's Dec and he's shooting in below zero temps, wearing bulky cloths often in inclement weather.
Now I'm with you, thru per-season practice, the gun HAS to be ranged in and the load proven thru good groupings, hopefully sub 1" MOA's ..but realistically, there is little chance that performance will or needs to be translated during the above hunting scenario.
Most guys simple opt for centre of mass (double lung) 'sure' shot even before they'd aim for the smaller vitals shot, let alone the more challenging neck and head shots. Being an inch or two off because the barrel is cold is really a moot point when you have a 10" target.
I think you've mentioned before that your own 'hunting' experiences were less than 200 yds, and I believe that within the ML community that is the norm. There are lots of guys who don't even have scopes mounted on their ML's, simple no need for most of their hunting situations...it's essentially a slug gun and most guys still use their shotgun bead sights for them.
Some of us here don't even use sabots....it's patch and ball...within 6" of bull at 100 yds is damn fine shooting !!!!
Mike Pal
Just for clarification I’m not a bench rest shooter. My load research and practice time is at the range. Here I want to reduce accuracy error as much as possible.
In the field say at 100yds if I produce a group of 1” at the bench my groups with a shooting stick is now at least 2” and freehand my group is now at least 3”. Carry that out to 200yds and the values double.
So my philosophy is reducing accuracy error at the range with given yardages helps to reduce my accuracy error in the field. This allows me to then make the best possible humane kill which I strive for.
Your right about many things that I won’t dispute but the 10ml-II and many other muzzle-loaders do use plastic sabots and from my experience along with others know the effect of bore heat if it is not controlled when shooting at the range to determine the actual accuracy obtainable. You could walk right by your best load and not even know it.
Ed
At the range 6 inch group at 100 yards stinks.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
I kept my shots to under 75 but nothing could walk away from the 766 grain slug! Not really into Hail Mary shots. Just my personal preference.
Whatever you do on the bench isn't what you'll do in the field.
My point was to sabot heating and sabots don't give a rats behind if it's black powder or a smokeless Mz.
Effect is the same....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
And that was mine...worrying about group drift when your barrel gets hot is a 'range' issue...means nothing to a hunter..
"sabot heating and sabots" you'll have to acquaint me with that term ...:)
Jack, when do you decide when a barrel is warm, too warm or to hot Jack....is it arbitrary ?
How do you differentiate shooter fatigue in group drift from soft sabot group drift ?
Found an interesting article on the topic. Test shooting on a heated barrel and how it affects sabots....
Not quite the horror story I was expecting after all the fuss....but if your bench rest shooting it would be an issue I guess.
This was the results of rapid firing x 15 shots (1 to 1.5 minute between shots) in 94 degree heat...thru a barrel to hot to touch... POA was the thick black box at 100 yds.
read more: http://www.namlhunt.com/mltesting2.html
http://www.namlhunt.com/uploads/2/9/...61619_orig.jpg