Wynne's 2016 Budget

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Originally Posted by sawbill

I was being sarcastic. The MNR in the north has been decimated in almost all of its services--district and field offices closed, over the counter services gone to service centers, parks closed or privatized, fire crews cut back and recycling privatized, timber managed by timber companies, commercial fur management gone, and the list goes on and on in just about every government organization--federal provincial and municipal. Yet there are guys here who still insist their salaries and pensions are above that of industry and job security is a done deal.

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Good points sawbill and fully agree ! I know and work with departments that use to have 8 to 10 people lets say in the clerks department that now have 3 people ! Many other departments have gone through the same down sizing over the last 10 years and this trend will continue. No new hires but add the extra work to staff to save money.
If the manufacturing industry hadn't left starting in the 1970's we wouldn't be having this conversation. The IT sector was booming in the 1990's and that also left and went bust. Hydro rates continue to go up as well as being taxed on everything ! No new industry in Ontario whatsoever that pays a decent fair wage. Gee i wonder why ?! People can only blame themselves for voting in the wrong political parties who are supposed to entice new business to come to Ontario and work for us. My home town of Chatham Ontario had Cambell Soup, Libby's, Navistar, Rockwell, Eaton Springs along with a whole list of other manufacturing plants that have left or a very bare bones manufacturing plant that still exist. All paid big money at one time and no complained about the municipal worker or other government workers. Why because they were making a hell of a lot more money than government workers.
The shoe is now on the other foot and the grass looks greener. In reality it's not ! Why because of everything i had mentioned earlier adding the mental health and stress levels that continue to climb.

People will always be comparing to what others have and that will never change. What needs to change is having responsible leaders and holding them accountable for all the promises they make and not make good on. We need new big business to come to Ontario and it needs to be presented in such a way that it is financially feasible for new business to start up. Huge reduction in hydro rates, tax, land tax, water charges etc. Make it so enticing that it would be stupid not to say no. Have them commit for so many years at these rates then slowly increase the rates.

What private industry pays doesn't affect you like PS and tax money. If a private firm overlpays staff they become uncompetitive and people "choose" another supplier. Can't do that with civil services. Apples & Oranges.

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Originally Posted by terrym

What private industry pays doesn't affect you like PS and tax money. If a private firm overlpays staff they become uncompetitive and people "choose" another supplier. Can't do that with civil services. Apples & Oranges.

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You missed the point.Tell me what the solution is Terry ?

Curious Yellow Dog.
After party X reduces corporate rates to entice new business. Reduces land taxes, taxes and fees.
Currently provincial Rev is about 130B. salaries and benefits 55% or 70B.
so after all these large tax cuts.
rev 100B
S and B still 70B
debt service 15%

15% or there a outs left over for the end users/infrastructure.


re "grass is Greener"
did you read any of the links?
11-12% higher Salaries and better job security and Pensions.

um.........and that 11-2% is across the board. When it's broken down. I believe it's
18% higher in lower income brackets
12-13% at the middle brackets
7-8% at the high brackets.


Re losses. Yep, some areas of PS have seen layoffs, again, read the above link.
2013
private sector losses 3.5%
public sector losses 0.8%

saying it's different doesn't make it different.

Now do I think all areas, all personnel???
nope but what does need to happen is reducing PS COST.
whether that's head count, Salaries, or Benefits (pensions)
reducing taxes just means there's nowhere near enough $ to pay for everyone/everything.

And they can start with areas that make far more and have it far better than the peons who can't find 2 nickels and can only dream about retirement themselves.

aka much of the--by definition---middle class, the families who combined earn 75k and above

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

You missed the point.Tell me what the solution is Terry ?

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the solution is to live within our capacity to pay. That means the end of DEfined benefit plans. Why should a single mom who can't afford to save for her own retirement have to pay for someone who has been overpaid by 13% ? That 13% should have been plenty for an RRSP plan.

Terry, let's forget the "single" moms. Aka people who work in the real world, where job security is and pensions are scarce.

YD. you feel that your under staffed. Could provide better service if your head count was higher.
We know ministries like the MNRF have been gutted since the 90s
we know that currently Teachers feel they are under staffed (class sizes)
we know that currently RNs are being let go in large numbers. Where wait times and more plague healthcare.
we know we need more DRs (800,000 peons without GPs)
we should know, there would be other areas. LEO? Others?
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why are so many areas in PS cutting people?
could it be because there's not enough money?
why do you think the MNR has seen millions and millions taken from their budget, and instead given to say "education". Could it be due to rising cost?

Worth fixing right? How? By hammering peons? By hammering companies when they are fleeing in droves, or see Hydro cost and won't invest here already?

with current cost of PS, how can we hire more?
Raise another 20B in taxes?
see the peons plight.

what if, the cost of PS was reduced 10-15%.
Not by head count. So no one loses their job, but Salary and Benefits.

how many more Nurses, could we hire with an extra 10billion?
how many more "teachers" or COs.........

lets to look at how many people are on The Sunshine list this year. And don't forget 80% of them have DBPs. Paid for largely by everyone lower in the pyramid. So some person who earns say 150k (Ms Wynnes definition of rich). Also has a pension that they will draw how from (70%?) each they remain alive.

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Originally Posted by terrym

the solution is to live within our capacity to pay. That means the end of DEfined benefit plans. Why should a single mom who can't afford to save for her own retirement have to pay for someone who has been overpaid by 13% ? That 13% should have been plenty for an RRSP plan.

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Why should I have to pay for subsidized daycare for the single mom ?


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[QUOTE=JBen;963138]Terry, let's forget the "single" moms. Aka people who work in the real world, where job security is and pensions are scarce.QUOTE]


I live in an industrial blue collar area. Inco, Falconbridge, CN, CP, to name the larger employers.
Around here thats the real world.
They all have pension plans that rival any PS plan and yep, I'd like to see their sunshine list--especially hydro. Still, all have greatly reduced their staff same as PS but you continue to hammer away at the PS.
The real problem is all people living longer, collecting pensions beyond what was anticipated and the subsequent increase in health care requirements for those people.

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Originally Posted by stragglelake

Why should I have to pay for subsidized daycare for the single mom ?


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The same reason you have to pay for the surgery of a cancer patient who got cancer from smoking all their life. If we want to pick and choose what we support and what we don't support as a nation, based purely on our own small perspective of life, everything will go to hell fast.

I'm not saying support everything but we do need to understand what is the end point or objective. For a single mom to survive she needs her kids in daycare. When daycare costs $15000 a year that makes it tough for a person who's trying in life, to survive.

[QUOTE=sawbill;963199]

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Originally Posted by JBen

Terry, let's forget the "single" moms. Aka people who work in the real world, where job security is and pensions are scarce.QUOTE]


I live in an industrial blue collar area. Inco, Falconbridge, CN, CP, to name the larger employers.
Around here thats the real world.
They all have pension plans that rival any PS plan and yep, I'd like to see their sunshine list--especially hydro. Still, all have greatly reduced their staff same as PS but you continue to hammer away at the PS.
The real problem is all people living longer, collecting pensions beyond what was anticipated and the subsequent increase in health care requirements for those people.

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Plus baby boomers now reaching age where medical costs will sky rocket. The system isn't ready for it. The government didn't save enough. The medical services will be provided and both the system will be strained and so will the tax payer.