Scarcity of Deer ???

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Originally Posted by Ahuntr300

With all due respect, I don't buy the 2 harsh winters being the principal cause of the deer population decline.

I lived long enough to have experienced more severe winters of past - harsh winters were the norm - but the deer populations still did well and increased over those years.

There are many more factors at play here.

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Then you'll know that Ontario's deer seemingly disappeared after the winter of 1958/59 (I wasn't around for that one) and again in 1971/72. Hard winters serve a double whammy: lots of deer die on the hoof and countless fawns are never born because a starving doe's body aborts the pregnancy even if the doe survives the winter.

When I was a kid growing up in Niagara in the early 1970's, if you so much as saw a set of deer tracks your whole family walked out to the back fourty to have a look. If you actually saw a live deer you phoned all your neighbours to tell them about it.

Other factors at play these days? Of course. Like I said, miscalculated management was one. We were allowed to shoot too many deer even after numbers were brought down to suitable winter range carrying capacity. Then the winters of 2013/14 & 2014/15 hit and the predators had an all-you-can-eat buffet. Snow was deep and deer were starving and weak. I live next to a deer yard and there were picked-over deer carcasses everywhere those winters. I shoot coyotes on sight, but canid predation is not big factor when other conditions are within the range of normal.

Don't lose your heads folks, Ontario is not in a deer crisis.

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Originally Posted by ninepointer

Then you'll know that Ontario's deer seemingly disappeared after the winter of 1958/59 (I wasn't around for that one) and again in 1971/72. Hard winters serve a double whammy: lots of deer die on the hoof and countless fawns are never born because a starving doe's body aborts the pregnancy even if the doe survives the winter.

When I was a kid growing up in Niagara in the early 1970's, if you so much as saw a set of deer tracks your whole family walked out to the back fourty to have a look. If you actually saw a live deer you phoned all your neighbours to tell them about it.

Other factors at play these days? Of course. Like I said, miscalculated management was one. We were allowed to shoot too many deer even after numbers were brought down to suitable winter range carrying capacity. Then the winters of 2013/14 & 2014/15 hit and the predators had an all-you-can-eat buffet. Snow was deep and deer were starving and weak. I live next to a deer yard and there were picked-over deer carcasses everywhere those winters. I shoot coyotes on sight, but canid predation is not big factor when other conditions are within the range of normal.

Don't lose your heads folks, Ontario is not in a deer crisis.

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This.

With some caveats.
The lodge I hunt at which is right in the heart of the Loring winter yards, has some old pics and lots of history. One pic from I think the 1940s has a group of hunters and their dogs. The meat pole behind them is stacked with deer. Lots of deer around back then in numbers Im not sure anyone has hung there in decades ( despite impressive years and the "so called glory years of 2000-2010).

So much depends on where exactly we are talking about. SW Ontario? IMO if you live and hunt there consider yourself lucky, you live in the land of plenty and easy street. Are predators a problem there ( likely the worst area for Coyotes, they are like fleas there). If predation was "the" problem...well SW Ontario's deer don't seem to be hurting...

Central Ontario?
Thats an entirely different region

Winters.
Can say that 2013 and 2014 took a toll on deer in 47. The guy that lives there, has two BMAs, was part of the old Loring winter feed program, who at one time would have hundreds of deer in his front yard ( literally). Has all kinds of first hand experience with finding 6-12 dead does in the spring, piled up under trees. Of the lack of fawns in the following years. Theres "word of mouth" of the MNR going in, in the spring and finding 30-40 Does piled up....... He's also seen the wolves and coyotes increasing in numbers, out on the ice.....

Not enough?
Algonquin park at one time was loaded with Whitetails. Lots written about the winters of 71/72, which came on the heels of winter yards being logged. They've never recovered. Are the wolves to blame? Hardly, but its like throwing fuel on a fire. And would seem as though the MNR hasn't learned from history or past mistakes.

For the record.
47 in 2 years went from almost 100% additional and 6,000 antler less to squat and slim to none.

We saw decent numbers this year (subjective term) and even better some fawns and for the first year in 3 years, we didn't see (or hear) the dogs. As with most things in life it's never one thing.

And with respect to "let nature handle it".
Impossible so long as we (man) are around. We're part of the equation and nature will never be able to establish a "balance" so long as we are around. By all means, cull man first or yourself then maybe nature will have a fighting chance...

Seen the urban sprawl through 73 the last few years?
Seen the changes to cottage country the last decade or two?
What do you think all that displacement and human encroachment is doing to small game, big game...
And Coyotes? Well they are incredibly adaptable..Doesnt seem to be affecting them in the slightest......

In the South part of 47, we would have 80 to 100 deer sightings in a week at camp. Then the winters of 13/14 and 14/15 hit. Now we see around 20 deer per week. We apply for doe tags, but we decided not to shoot them. The trapper in our area sledded around his grounds and found deer in neck deep snow. He cut some maples down for them.

Now down here in 90, we have a coyote group that consistently gets 50 plus yotes year hunting the same blocks. Do neighbouring yotes move into those blocks or do they just breed back that many every year?

Almost in line with us cramadog, and we hunt the migration (last week of archery).
2015 we saw I think a total of 6, hung 1.
During rifle which is just the resident deer, the guys that go for that hung 3

2014
Not much better. Saw less than 20.

2016
This year we were snake bitten. Not many chances, only 2 Doe tags for the group and passing on Does/fawns. We didn't hang any, but saw at least 60 (and fawns, the most important). Many years ago they'd see 300 and more for the week. During rifle (again just residents that time of year) they hung 1, saw 4.

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Originally Posted by cramadog2

In the South part of 47, we would have 80 to 100 deer sightings in a week at camp. Then the winters of 13/14 and 14/15 hit. Now we see around 20 deer per week. We apply for doe tags, but we decided not to shoot them. The trapper in our area sledded around his grounds and found deer in neck deep snow. He cut some maples down for them.

Now down here in 90, we have a coyote group that consistently gets 50 plus yotes year hunting the same blocks. Do neighbouring yotes move into those blocks or do they just breed back that many every year?

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Coyotes always go where the food is,deplete it and move on. Can you remember the last time you ever saw a starved to death Coyote carcass? Me,neither.

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[COLOR=#333333]I do not believe yotes are the sole or primary reason populations are down.

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No where in my post did I ever say the above, I mentioned the number of fawns that those coyotes [on film ] had taken down as I thought that it was a high number, and those were the ones they had brought to just the one den site, then after a few weeks the coyote family moves to another den site till the pups are on their own.
In the mean time at the new site , how many more did they kill? without those fawns there will be no reproduction, as some would have twins in their prime years and that all adds up to a lot of missing deer in future years.
Yes I agree in some parts of Ontario, the deer are doing well, but in others they are dwindling drastically.

[COLOR=#333333] "When 120 Turks move into a 15 acre cut corn field that is left not disced for the deer as a food source and start eating a cob a day minimum...[COLOR=#333333]What is left for the deer that need that corn to fatten up for winter. "

I think you had better study up on the habits of deer and what they eat.

Deer survive mainly on browse, not corn

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Originally Posted by JBen

The lodge I hunt at which is right in the heart of the Loring winter yards, has some old pics and lots of history. One pic from I think the 1940s has a group of hunters and their dogs. The meat pole behind them is stacked with deer.

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Ah... the 1940's. Some pics from our WMU 47 deer camp:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ps3ciyagu2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...pscvyjbu1d.jpg

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Originally Posted by cramadog2

In the South part of 47, we would have 80 to 100 deer sightings in a week at camp. Then the winters of 13/14 and 14/15 hit. Now we see around 20 deer per week. We apply for doe tags, but we decided not to shoot them. The trapper in our area sledded around his grounds and found deer in neck deep snow. He cut some maples down for them.

Now down here in 90, we have a coyote group that consistently gets 50 plus yotes year hunting the same blocks. Do neighbouring yotes move into those blocks or do they just breed back that many every year?

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A friend of mine has an 800 acre farm in 47 just below Arnstein, he spends a lot of time up there over the last few years, improving things.
His comment on the number of deer seen this year was 3 , thats it 3 deer seen where did they all go? as that has always been a prime deer area. the deer seen were all adults , no young ones of the year.
Lots of coyotes that no longer see the light of day, and quite a few bears, these predators must all be eating a lot of youg venison , as he says they are/were in good shape.

lol yep, like that. :)
The pic on the wall Im referring to has a group of guys and a stack hanging I have trouble wrapping my head around. :). The best part is in amongst all the guys with their rifles, and dogs is some guy holding a long bow. Can you imagine the deer being so thick that you could use a long bow during a push with dogs. :)

personally I think the biggest problem currently with many parts of Central Ontario is habitat loss, (sprawl) and human encroachment.I mean the Kawarthas and Muskokas compared to just 30 years ago.......... Then the winters of 13-14. In ways not unlike areas close to APP back in 71/72. The dogs are just making a bad situation, "worse".

When I look at the sprawl around here, and the dwindling numbers of all kinds of things. They have to go somewhere....
And we are creating anvils and steel traps. No way "nature" can balance things, not with us constantly and drastically altering nature and mucking with it. Look how much Barrie has grown in just the past 5 years. Their world (all kinds of prey species and not just WTs) is getting smaller and smaller. And Coyotes ( and wolves to I guess).........

With regard to what Ninepointer said:

Then the winter of 2013/14 hit and it was bad for the deer, but for reasons unknown we were still showered with tags & antlerless validations. Then the unthinkable happened and there was another bad winter in 2014/15. As a result the additional tags dried up somewhat

I think the answer to why there was no reduction in tags in 2014 was that there was a provincial election in late June 2014. Ministers would have been ordering the civil service that they didn't want any potentially negative messages or actions going out which might result in votes against reigning government.

I'm not railing against the Liberals. Mike Harris did the same thing when he closed the spring bear hunt. He was threatened by anti hunting forces just prior to an election and gave in to them. These actions by both parties are disgusting. Natural resources should be managed for the benefit of the natural resource first, then the public and never for the political party.