MNRF cuts.

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Originally Posted by benjhind

I don't really get the argument here. How much do you expect a teacher to work for after dumping $50-100K and 4 or 5 years of their life into education?

I went to university, so did most of my friends. We all work white collar jobs and none of us work for peanuts. In general, those that I know in the public service make less money than those I know in the private sector. The public sector guys take home less pay, but they work fewer hours and have good pensions.

The guys I know who make the most coin either started a business or pull lots of OT in the trades.

If you want highschool dropouts to teach your kids or write your prescriptions, you can have them for minimum wage. If you want professionals you have to pay a professional wage.

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They do not have to work for wages that they do not want, but nobody pushed them to spend all that time and money in school either. There is too much emphasis on University, right now general University degrees give you a really large debt to pay off flipping burgers.

I know a heck of a lot of people who dumped more money into school than a teacher and they are making a heck of a lot less with no benefits and no pension or job security.

Its hard to understand what you're talking about Fox. Are you arguing that the qualifications for teaching should be changed?

Nobody makes anyone invest in university, but it is a prerequisite for most of the public service. It is also a prerequisite for a lot of jobs that make decent money. My point wasn't that universities are a guaranteed pathway to riches, my point was that if you are going to require someone to have a degree, you generally have to pay them more than McDonalds pays.

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Originally Posted by benjhind

Its hard to understand what you're talking about Fox. Are you arguing that the qualifications for teaching should be changed?

Nobody makes anyone invest in university, but it is a prerequisite for most of the public service. It is also a prerequisite for a lot of jobs that make decent money. My point wasn't that universities are a guaranteed pathway to riches, my point was that if you are going to require someone to have a degree, you generally have to pay them more than McDonalds pays.

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What I am saying is that our requirements for degrees are stupid, if you want to make money become a plumber, everybody poops and everyone always will.

Teachers do not have to work for pay that is less than they feel they should make but also holding the children and tax payers hostage through the union for what they want is also insane. I remember when they were on strike when I was a kid, the teacher told me that they work too hard for too little money and not enough job security. At that time they were being paid almost double what my parents were being paid with more vacation and more benefits and a pension. My parents were college educated in the high tech field and getting paid an average wage for that in demand field, they could be laid off at any time and had no pension.

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Originally Posted by LoR

Mark, this forum has a long history on this debate. And there are various “PS” here.
Sometimes mincing words, treading around the eggshells is needed.

There are those who will post about lazy PS, there are contractors here that have first hand experience with the gouging, and far far more. That’s true in any walk of life. What’s not the same is you and I have the option, of shopping somewhere else.

Imo, there no way, anyone, including some of the most highly regarded economist can drill down and say “they” are over compensated. That leaves broad brush strokes and generalities.

Consider “just” this and I will specifically name education/teachers. A good friend of mine, herself a teacher of 23 years will point out.

Most of the right forget that after Harris, a whole bunch of teachers were hired. Today, they have 20 years in and due to stupid union compensation ( salaries grids where people get nice raises just for showing up and doing their jobs). They are all “way up” there. And that’s before benefits.......

Me I don’t care much for green grass, or yellow grass arguments.

I think about millions of peons entering their 70s without anywhere near enough...being forced back into the workforce (becoming more common to see seniors working at Tim’s, Walmart, the liquor store, etc already) and the reasons why.

Stagnant wages and increasing taxation primarily. And the wall we will hit when those chickens come home to roost. I don’t know very many middle class families with $700,000 in the bank ( for 1 person).We can also see early signs of the trouble in the rise of populism.

Don’t much care what anyone makes. Be they a teacher or cab driver. If they work hard and make 100k. “Good for them”.

But anything, be it a house, a car, a widget, a person in a job.Is only “worth” what the buyer can afford. In this case, the tax base. That large percentage of the population ( pyramid).



Back to Ford and his “cuts”.
At the end of it all. We are still running deficits ( he’s spending as much as he cuts) and will. With only a typical political promise......

Meanwhile, that wall, like the climate changing is getting ever so closer.

And even when they balance the budget, if they ever do. Debt to GDP is still an albatross.

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I can't argue with that. But how can anyone even fix it? If the government comes in and says we are going to make all these cuts ... they don't get elected, because the teachers, doctors, etc just won't vote for them ... that's the only reason Wynne won prior to Ford. Hudak tried to be honest, and it cost him the election. Ford played a clever game, knowing he would have to cut PS, but he kept his debt reduction strategy under wraps until after the election.

I think to be fair on Ford though, he's just getting into it, and I'd say it'll take a year for him to really figure out how to cut operating costs. He's dealing with a lot of interest that needs to be paid which hampers the cash flow, and that is primarily the Liberal's fault (as it will be on the federal level too). I'm giving Ford a pass this year, but next year I expect real improvements, the ones that lead to tax cuts for people who actually need it.

Almost 30% of public sector employees will be ready to retire in the next three to four years. None will be replaced. That's a tactic the private sector has been using for almost 15 years and it's very effective. "Attrition" is the key word,especially,with teachers,where a large number in the profession won't be needed due to the declining birth rate. They'll kick,scream,obfuscate facts and launch union-funded smear campaigns,but,the figures don't lie.

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Originally Posted by Fox

They do not have to work for wages that they do not want, but nobody pushed them to spend all that time and money in school either. There is too much emphasis on University, right now general University degrees give you a really large debt to pay off flipping burgers.

I know a heck of a lot of people who dumped more money into school than a teacher and they are making a heck of a lot less with no benefits and no pension or job security.

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I can tell you, without a doubt, not an ounce of doubt, I do not want a high school student being a teacher to my kids. What you are saying doesn't really make sense to me. If you want a decent teacher, they must be educated. Yes, they chose to take up that career ... but if you plan on giving them $30k a year ... you're going to have a crap hole of an education system, as is the case in many third world countries right now.

It comes down to, if the person ADDS VALUE, then pay them! If they don't add value, we do not need them. Doesn't matter if it's PS or even joe blow on the street. Joe Blow may think it's okay to contribute 10% to taxes (or nothing at all, think total cash business) and then claim for welfare too ... milk the system. This is even worse than PS people who are taking tax payers for a ride ... at least we know their salaries and what taxes they should be paying.

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Originally Posted by Fox

What I am saying is that our requirements for degrees are stupid, if you want to make money become a plumber, everybody poops and everyone always will.

Teachers do not have to work for pay that is less than they feel they should make but also holding the children and tax payers hostage through the union for what they want is also insane. I remember when they were on strike when I was a kid, the teacher told me that they work too hard for too little money and not enough job security. At that time they were being paid almost double what my parents were being paid with more vacation and more benefits and a pension. My parents were college educated in the high tech field and getting paid an average wage for that in demand field, they could be laid off at any time and had no pension.

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So here's two questions:

1) are the teachers the problem, or are the unions the problem?
2) who allows/supports the unions in Ontario, as in why are unions allowed in Ontario?

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Originally Posted by Fox

What I am saying is that our requirements for degrees are stupid, if you want to make money become a plumber, everybody poops and everyone always will.

Teachers do not have to work for pay that is less than they feel they should make but also holding the children and tax payers hostage through the union for what they want is also insane. I remember when they were on strike when I was a kid, the teacher told me that they work too hard for too little money and not enough job security. At that time they were being paid almost double what my parents were being paid with more vacation and more benefits and a pension. My parents were college educated in the high tech field and getting paid an average wage for that in demand field, they could be laid off at any time and had no pension.

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Tell your parents it's time to unionize. I'm not a fan of unions but I certainly don't trust the owner of a business to always do right by the workers. It's kind of a predator /prey relationship.

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Originally Posted by MarkB

So here's two questions:

1) are the teachers the problem, or are the unions the problem?
2) who allows/supports the unions in Ontario, as in why are unions allowed in Ontario?

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REALLY! Do some homework on the union movement. You'll soon see why your grandfather worked 6 days a week for minimum wages. I know they protect some employees that should be fired but they also improve the wages and working conditions for many others.

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Originally Posted by sawbill

There's hardly an underground miner in this area who doesn't make the sunshine list once bonus and o/t is factored in. The sunshine list is obsolete when capped at $100,000. The same can be said for many police officers, railroad employees, etc once o/t is included.

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Absolutely! I have family members in the trades that make more than a lot of teacher. If you're a tradesmen with a skill we want you in education!!! Can't get tech teachers! Why? They'd take a huge pay cut to be a teacher. Oh they'd get the two months off in the summer but that isn't money and it doesn't pay the bills.