Wow, it is about money

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Originally Posted by terrym

These clowns, "Teachers" in some cases clearly didn't do very well in economics class. Overtaxation reduces economic output and eventually reduces revenues. Overtaxation chases industry to jurisdictions where it is more favorable to operate. GM doesn't move manufacturing facilities to Mexico because they like the weather down there. The Auto sector unions have killed that industry by squeezing wages that just don't reflect the value of work done. If they had understood that working on an assembly line isn't worth $90k/yr they might still have jobs at $65k. Industry has a choice to make decisions like relocating. Taxpayers have no choice in sending work out to a lowest bidder. We are trapped but at some point we will have no more credit available and reality for the PS will radical. The irony is that the left who demonize Harper for allowing the Chinese to invest into Oil sands infrastructure have no problem letting the debt rise for instant gratification but quite often that debt is owned/backed by the Chinese anyway.
If parents were allowed to "opt out" of taxation for education and be responsible for their own decisions and pay for private schools with that portion of the tax money the education industry would be dramatically restructured and the finished product ( quality of grads ) would rise enormously. I say it's time to privatize education completely, from Principals to custodians.

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The entire automotive industry has been forced to radically alter how they do business with the unions by closing inefficient operations and consolidating others right here in Ontario. The net result has been radical reductions in pay and benefits for staff and job eliminations across the board. Among other things,this has also led to more successful business ventures and product advances unheard of even 10 years ago. The Government needs to take a lesson from the private sector and do the same thing. As a retired autoworker and union member,I abhor the fact that it came to that,but,with 20/20 hindsight,it was absolutely necessary because the alternative would have been absolutely unavoidable and much,much worse.

Which was my point. The unions made domestic cars uncompetitive and the company's were on the hook for huge legacy/pension obligations. It forced them out of the country with all the trickle down service and parts business with it. This lost employment will never return in our lifetimes. There is a breaking point that unions seem to ignore. What happened in the auto sector will happen in the PS. Common sense would have prevented it.

Well, its not an issue now. Harper just promised $2.6B to Toronto. Now Kathleen can use that money to pay the teachers. No fuss.

Other than my obvious sarcasm above, I don't have anything to offer on this thread. No matter what is said at the end of the day the teachers will continue to get their money and the taxpayers will have to pay it.
Unfortunately 2018 can't come soon enough - but of course that is a slim hope that the voters will be smart enough to put her to the curb. Depsite that, we will be paying these bills for decades.

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Originally Posted by fratri

Oh..... You are so right and I ain't talking about the teachers... :)

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Thats very true Fatri.
And something many forget. Are "teachers" or their Unions part of the problem? Yep, they are.
But theres a lot more to it.

"regardless" at least in my mind and this to, can likely be laid at the Unions feet.
Everyone fights to protect their own kingdoms, or expand them…And thus nothing really gets done, or its the low hanging fruit that get targeted. See Nurses, Drs (non unionized), the MNR and others.

Even now, occasionally you see Smokey (OPSEU) fighting with others because he saw this coming. Have to at least give him some credit.

Other than giving the Unions the boot, I "don't know" what the answers are.
Over all….total compensation eats more than 50% of the provinces revenue. The entire "debate" or Ping match about Pensions is well known, well documented….and even every politician at every level be it Provincial or Federal knows they are way too rich….And change is needed.
Yet, there are those who say…well go back to school, blame yourself for not being educated or a good enough paying job, or picking the wrong fields, or….XYZ.

Debt servicing…another 10%
Private is taking it on the chin
Many are getting pummelled by rising taxes and cost of living.

It can only get worse.

Mass layoffs?
Wage reductions?

THis year the province has limited spending growth in healthcare to 1%
REally? Last I checked they blame MH for everything despite doing nothing themselves for 14 years to fix anything. Many problems are worse or growing (wait times), many things have been delisted etc, etc, etc.

Hmmm healthcare vs teachers and classroom sizes or healthcare vs …..


This year, we are selling of Hydro One ("to pay for infrastructure")…
Hmmm infrastructure or improving economic outlook/prospectes and jobs which helps everyone..versus…..
See also many kids with debt up to their eyeballs and worthless pieces of paper.

We know healthcare and associated cost expected to explode with Boomers..Drug plans? Pharmaceuticals let alone sooooooo much more??

We know many people don't have adequate savings
We know most don't have Pensions
Many are predicting housing markets to correct or crash ( what do people rely on these days for retirement? Atleast those without Pensions and many with?)
Some day Interest rates will rise as well.
But I guess at least on this topic its soooooooo much more important.

Well at least maybe those that are teachers will be able to help their elderly parents
What about people that can't because they getting pummelled.
Whats the price per month these days for decent retirement communities?
$5000/month?
Do the math.


/tries to picture an Ontario in 10-20yrs when we are supporting so many, or getting hammered by those social cost……

Than trying to fix big problems before……

2300.00 a month ( private room), for the best city of TO. run, long term care home, and if you do not have the money the gov. will make up the diff between the cost, and your total pension checks.

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Originally Posted by Oddmott

I didn't' hear him complaining about his job, his choices or his lot in life. He said he's made due with less than teachers expect, and is comfortable doing so.

You know, it's more than possible that someone can work a job/career/profession and be completely content with what it offers... and not whine and cry for more money and less work, every 18 months - 3 years, like our teachers have trained themselves to do.

Tax payers who have to constantly put up with the ETFO's bullshyte every other year have a right to point out that many others do more, work harder, and receive less compensation... and are able to live entirely comfortable and enjoyable lives... without holding other peoples' children ransom.



Have a younger cousin who found out the exact same thing. Recruiters (did your daughter attend Carleton by any chance?) did a really good job selling the program and the employment prospects... unfortunately the reality of the industry is very different indeed.

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University of Guelph - which is supposed to be top-of-the province in that regard. She worked at the heart institute last summer with some Carleton grads and found that their program was far more skewed towards biochemistry and lesser so toward engineering. Carleton also has a problem with programs getting watered down to accommodate recent immigrants.

Theres a few here in Durham G that are well north of that. But you can see the problem.

In lets say 10-15 years its an average of $4,500 for decent.
The gov't aka us pick up the tab.

For that, meds, all the addition healthcare practitioners that are going to be required…Which also means less money for roads, or this or that or Teachers or Nurses…or

Oh, crap theres no money because Pensions are so rich, and total compensation and this, that the other….and "teachers" or XYZ..

So great, not only are people "today" finding it near impossible to save for their own (unless they have one)……now they will need to pick up the tab for the Boomers who don't have them and…..

Lets just hammer tax payers more…which in part is creating the problems.??????

Kind of hard to save $$ when taxation takes more than 50% of your income. And you lose more to that, than your spend on housing/food (mortgage/bills/utilities/etc)….and somehow also have to find 2 nickels for a rainy day (lets use the credit line) let alone retirement.

Meanwhile over in PS…….
job security
good to great benefits
better pay (broad brush strokes, won't hold true everywhere)
Pensions

We are heading for a wall, add compounding problems potentially with Interest rates and any more downturns, or housing crashes (Its well known a lot of boomers won't be leaving much for their kids as is)….or that those without Pensions…..See the trend towards reverse mortgages and other things.

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Originally Posted by Hunter John

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ROFLMBO My laugh for the day! Thanks.

Wynne is borrowing more money to pay interest on the debt that has doubled under Liberal rule. She is selling basic and strategic infrastructure like Hydo to fund.....Infrastructure????
What she is doing is pawning everything she can to payback the teacher's union who have provided her with the best job in Ontario. She is exposing all of Ontario tax/ratepayers to unrestricted rate hikes and no auditor oversight to pay for transit in Toronto. She has proven to be completely oblivious to everybody except the loan sharks ( OPSEU, Teachers) she owes her career to.