Wynne's 2016 Budget

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Originally Posted by terrym

Anybody with a brain knows that. It's nothing but a big fat pool of cash she can use to expand the PS and her voting base. "Infrastructure, Climate Change, Pension plans" are nothing but smoke and mirrors to con the weak minded out of huge amounts of disposable income.

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Agreed. I can't wait to kick her our of government. If she's voted in again, then I know we're doomed.

[QUOTE=sawbill;963199]

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Originally Posted by JBen

Terry, let's forget the "single" moms. Aka people who work in the real world, where job security is and pensions are scarce.QUOTE]


I live in an industrial blue collar area. Inco, Falconbridge, CN, CP, to name the larger employers.
Around here thats the real world. They all have pension plans that rival any PS plan and yep, I'd like to see their sunshine list--especially hydro. Still, all have greatly reduced their staff same as PS but you continue to hammer away at the PS.
The real problem is all people living longer, collecting pensions beyond what was anticipated and the subsequent increase in health care requirements for those people.

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Word it however you like Sawbill.
One (not the only difference) between "PS" and say a Falconbridge, or Inco or Teck or CN...
No body forces consumers to spend/shop or buy at Falconbridge. When things become too expensive.......In other words Falconbridge doesn't reach into the pockets of people without their ok.
Try that with "PS" and you go to jail.
*****
Do you know what the difference is between DBPs and DCPs?
Most public pensions are DBPs
Most private pensions are DCPs
And then there is the vast majority of people who don't have one period (65% of the pop)
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The "problem" are a few. One is longevity, absolutely. Quite agree back in 60s, 70s few weren't smart enough to figure out that life expectancy would increase...(back then it was around 12years male, today its over 20)...Back then don't forget the formula was lower pay, but better security and benefits....Today its same/higher pay....and

So what ignore the fact that due to longevity and increased cost burdens...Lets sweep it under the rug because we don't want to hear it?

Another is rising compensation. Have you seen the Sunshine list lately?
Guess what Sawbill, the more a person earns, the higher the payouts under DBPs. Its the benefit that's defined not the contribution
Maybe if you went your life funding a DContributionP yourself......

How many of the PS Pensions are
50% employee/50% tax payer
40% employee/60% tax payer
30% employee/70% tax payer (see Hydro Pensions)

Tell ya Sawbill.
Why don't we make ORPP
50% Employee
50% PS people
Atleast as a DCP it will still be a bargain vs the considerably more expensive DBPs and "fairer"

Can we count on you?
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The "problems" are numerous
800,000 people without GPs
waittimes and more
Bed and Nurse shortages
People who have neither the same "security", nor futures (Pensions) who combined earn 75-100k. What some "teachers" make alone (let alone someday a hefty Pension).
Getting hammered.

How do you propose we hire say
1,000 GPs at $200,000 each plus their Pension
5,000 Nurses at say $60,000 each plus their Pension
500 COs at say $62,000 each plus their Pension
500 Biologist at say 80,000 each and their Pension
Given things...

Let alone so many other things. Not the least of which is the tax burdens hard working people are bearing paying for everything and everyone

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Originally Posted by MarkB

The same reason you have to pay for the surgery of a cancer patient who got cancer from smoking all their life. If we want to pick and choose what we support and what we don't support as a nation, based purely on our own small perspective of life, everything will go to hell fast.

I'm not saying support everything but we do need to understand what is the end point or objective. For a single mom to survive she needs her kids in daycare. When daycare costs $15000 a year that makes it tough for a person who's trying in life, to survive.

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I don't smoke or have kids but I do have a pension plan. I guess I should give up my pension plan to fund some of these things and we can have a race to the bottom.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Excuse Me! Nobody forces us to buy from a Falco or an Inco? Or CN or CP. Next time you have to buy something like house wiring or a pot or an automobile maybe you think the material just fell off a tree and blew in on the wind. So you word it however you like. But these companies salaries do impact us every time you go to a grocery store or do your consumer thing.

What happens Sawbill when their cost......
What happens when overhead gets to expensive for GM, and so many others......

http://m.torontosun.com/2016/03/15/e...sing-in-canada
Tell me Sawbill. How many people in Rural Ontario rely on heating oil....

maybe oneday those who have relatively good, will understand what the cost of PS is doing.
maybe you'd like to speculate why the MNRF has been gutted the past 30 years? Could it be because they took the money to pay for....

and maybe if if rather than taxing the help out if the peons for ever increasing cost reduce the cost and maybe then we could afford more
Nurses or Teachers, or COs?

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Originally Posted by JBen

What happens Sawbill when their cost......
What happens when overhead gets to expensive for GM, and so many others......

http://m.torontosun.com/2016/03/15/e...sing-in-canada
Tell me Sawbill. How many people in Rural Ontario rely on heating oil....

maybe oneday those who have relatively good, will understand what the cost of PS is doing.
maybe you'd like to speculate why the MNRF has been gutted the past 30 years? Could it be because they took the money to pay for....

and maybe if if rather than taxing the help out if the peons for ever increasing cost reduce the cost and maybe then we could afford more
Nurses or Teachers, or COs?

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When overhead gets to expensive for GM they get a bail out from the government.

Maybe they took the money to pay for daycare and treatment for smokers with lung cancer and people on ODSP.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They pick up and BO to Mexico. If the government did the same you'd be whining about lack of services.
MNR got gutted because there are far more life pressing issues that the public demand for their taxes--police services, health care, education. You're a master at the Google thing, research the salaries of MNR to other government agencies and you will find they are at the absolute bottom of the barrel.

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Originally Posted by sawbill

They pick up and BO to Mexico. If the government did the same you'd be whining about lack of services.
MNR got gutted because there are far more life pressing issues that the public demand for their taxes--police services, health care, education. You're a master at the Google thing, research the salaries of MNR to other government agencies and you will find they are at the absolute bottom of the barrel.

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I'm a master at Google ??
I haven't googled anything that I have written !
If you believe they have gutted the MNR to fund other pressing issues then you are very naive.
They gutted the MNR the same reason they gutted the ministry of transportation .... Because they don't care about the natural resources or if your safe on the roads or you stand in line at the MOT office for an hour !!!
All the plowing of the roads are contracted out to public companies now and how is that working out... Not good !!
I'm sure it costs the same as it did before but it's one company making all the money with no ownership to the work they perform.


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So Sawbill.
lets agree there are areas where we have shortages, be that the MNR or Nursing. Either of these should do.

Whats your suggestion for finding the $
Take 100-300 million per year from education? If I recall correctly the recent 1% raise teachers got will cost 500 million.

Continue to tax people who pound for pound are worse off? As Terry said, what about the single moms who earn say 60,000 and don't have a Pension or the same kind of security...?

What about the 800,000 tax paying Ontarians without GPs?
Take anothet 100 million from...300million from...and 200mlion from...?

or find ways to reduce the cost of PS for a change without gutting areas that are easy targets/low in the food chain.?

novel idea right?
not sure why you complete dismiss so many things be it
studies that show losses in PS are significantly smaller, be it studies that show higher wages, benefits at all ranges. Some even suggest 25% more when benefits are factored in......

or simply the total cost of "PS" which eats 55% of the revenue. Add debt servicing (11%)
doesnt leave much for A to Z.

And you do know that longevity......so just ignore that?

Because I'm in a "mood", having just left a 3 hour meeting with 30 colleagues with labour lawyers.
And you seem to think "everyone" on Bay Street has it good.

Average salary 47,000
without the same job security
many of whom no Pension.

http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/...Advisor/Salary

tbose are the people and those like them, I have sympathy for these days.
Given well many things......not the least of which is exploding taxes, brutal management, soaring debt, and more.