AR 15 Reclassification

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Originally Posted by skypilot

It has no integrity to be a benchmark to take away a US Constitutional RIGHT.

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Anyone who wants a good grounding on this topic ought to read Adam Winkler. Winkler, a constitutional scholar, has made several suggestions as to how to deal with these problems in a way that both protects the public and respects the constitutional rights of the small number of people (200) who find themselves on the terrorist watch list.

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Originally Posted by skypilot

I know it happened under Mulrooney but wasn't it non restricted several times until around c68?

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You are correct, the AR-15 has bounced back and forth several times. The last change was Kim Campbell moving it to the restricted list, which was a couple of years before C-68.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Anyone who wants a good grounding on this topic ought to read Adam Winkler. Winkler, a constitutional scholar, has made several suggestions as to how to deal with these problems in a way that both protects the public and respects the constitutional rights of the small number of people (200) who find themselves on the terrorist watch list.



You are correct, the AR-15 has bounced back and forth several times. The last change was Kim Campbell moving it to the restricted list, which was a couple of years before C-68.

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Thank you. I thought it was non restricted several times.

About the "terror list"

Actually there are 3 lists.... Terror watch(Terrorist Screening Database), no fly, and selectee. The last two are subsets of the Terror Watch List. There were almost 500 US people(citizens, residents) on the no fly for numerous reasons and not allowed in US Airspace.

The selectee list is used to further screen individuals. It had about 20000 names.

100% of people agree(except terrorist)no terrorist should be able to buy a gun in the US, but many do not understand the severity of denying Constiututional Rights without due process AND based on an inaccurate list.

The FBI control the Terrorist Screening Center with ALL the lists, Terror Watch, No Fly, Selectee AND they(FBI) conduct Gun Background checks thru NCIC bridged to Interstate Identfication Index.

It is a liberal red herring to drum on about the "list(s)." They are what they are and no one, that is a known terrorist, is going to go buy a gun from a dealer and get thru a background check under present checks now.

In addition, none can yet predict a self radicalized lone wolf. The Pulse shooter would not have been stopped by any of the new legislation proposed. It would simply take RIGHTS away from all Americans with no pre emptive benefits.

He was checked by the State of Florida State Police for CCW, bond check, G4S employment check, ATF Form 4473 AND FBI NCIC bridged to III AND two personal interviews by FBI agents because he had ties to a suicide bomber, and "threats" against others.

He literally had more quality checks than most anywhere else in North America.

IT ISN"T THE GUN. NOR HOW HE GOT THE GUN. It won't be when it happens in Canada either. It will be the same pestilence and ideology of the 6th century that is ISIS.

R. That may be true, but the fact remains, I hate to say. The U.S. Is off the charts and until the pro gun side sits down and gets some changes, it's inly going to get worse. For all our similarities, that stats are inarguable.

If I've said it once, I've said it a dozen times.
they have the means and willpower to move mountains when foreigners kill 3,000 of their own on 9/11. But for the 30,000 killed every year by their own.........."by my dead cold hands"

the 2nd was written during a time when only the best of the best could manage 3 rounds a minute. Anyone with a semi and a 30 round mag, can empty it's in less time than it takes to pee or say Yankee Doodle dandy. And if they have 6 or 8 mags ready to go. It's a slaughter. How many times has Joe PA said, well if there was someone there carrying? Well guess what, there was and he changed nothing.

your country has been on a slow burn for decades, you can watch it implode or "get er done"
i don't know what to say, it nuts. And you know me, I am far from a bleeding heart liberal. :)

One last "rebuttal" R.
Dont the 49 recent dead,,the children at Sandy Hook, the 20,000 killed every year have rights to? The right to freedom, some safeties and more? How many RIGHTS do dead people have? Why is it, the NRA always forgets their rights?

The problem is that gun regulations target and affect only those who are law abiding and not a concern. You can you can round up all the legally owned guns you can track down but the criminals don't shop at Basspro.

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Originally Posted by JBen

R. That may be true, but the fact remains, I hate to say. The U.S. Is off the charts and until the pro gun side sits down and gets some changes, it's inly going to get worse. For all our similarities, that stats are inarguable.

If I've said it once, I've said it a dozen times.
they have the means and willpower to move mountains when foreigners kill 3,000 of their own on 9/11. But for the 30,000 killed every year by their own.........."by my dead cold hands"

the 2nd was written during a time when only the best of the best could manage 3 rounds a minute. Anyone with a semi and a 30 round mag, can empty it's in less time than it takes to pee or say Yankee Doodle dandy. And if they have 6 or 8 mags ready to go. It's a slaughter. How many times has Joe PA said, well if there was someone there carrying? Well guess what, there was and he changed nothing.

your country has been on a slow burn for decades, you can watch it implode or "get er done"
i don't know what to say, it nuts. And you know me, I am far from a bleeding heart liberal. :)

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30k is inaccurate by half at least.
Big difference if I'm the one on offensive and I see you in uniform vs you shooting at me from behind cover or concealment when I start my "plan."

The true freedom of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness that gives rights to the Pulse clientele and Westboro Baptist are the same rights that allow gun purchase ownership and "bearing of arms."

Just like with the right of free speech, you get the bad and the good.

The US Constitution is an evergreen document. It means now what it did then and will mean that same thing in 500 years.

How do you suggest we stop the terrorist involved in the Pulse event?

Do you seriously believe or even CARE what was used rather than how to stop the evil? I don't. The ONLY way to insure it never happens is to exterminate that ideology or it will be something else they use. We stopped the easy purchase of TNT and they went to ANFO. We pretty much stopped that and they went to TATP and/or black powder like Boston.

The terrorist weapon is between their ears not between their hands........Same can be said of the mentally ill mass murderers.

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in 2013, firearms were used in 84,258 nonfatal injuries (26.65 per 100,000 U.S. citizens) and 11,208 deaths by homicide (3.5 per 100,000), 21,175 by suicide with a firearm, 505 deaths due to accidental discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms-

2013: just under 25,000 gun deaths.
Last time I checked GD per capita was between 11 and 12. In Canada its under 3 and we own a lot of guns to

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Originally Posted by JBen

One last "rebuttal" R.
Dont the 49 recent dead,,the children at Sandy Hook, the 20,000 killed every year have rights to? The right to freedom, some safeties and more? How many RIGHTS do dead people have? Why is it, the NRA always forgets their rights?

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Gun murder is likely less than 10,000, mostly black on black, gang, male, under 30 years old in 250k or up population areas and is a very low percentage of the popuulation. We know who, where and what but we do nothing because it isn't politically correct.

We'd rather punish the rights of gun owners.

If you EVER take away one RIGHT none are safe.

All people in the US have the rights you mention, even the gun owners. There is no moral equivalency in removing gun rights from lawful owners v terrorist or mentally ill killing within the population. It's not even the proper subject or topic.

We have a right to bear arms. There are PLENTY of hoops to jump thru NOW.

Let me ask you... How many must die while people like you address the wrong symptom? Why not put the salve where the sore is? Why? Because we have a spineless chicken chit leader that won't even say radical islamist and has his cronies redacts the 911 call transcript of the actual terrorist spewing his ideology, claiming his kinship, and taking sole responsibility.

Hard to fix a terrorist problem you won't even speak out loud or commit to with the resolve to eradicate it from the face of the earth.

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Originally Posted by JBen

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in 2013, firearms were used in 84,258 nonfatal injuries (26.65 per 100,000 U.S. citizens) and 11,208 deaths by homicide (3.5 per 100,000), 21,175 by suicide with a firearm, 505 deaths due to accidental discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms-

2013: just under 25,000 gun deaths.
Last time I checked GD per capita was between 11 and 12. In Canada its under 3 and we own a lot of guns to

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LOOK at the FBI UCR gun murders since we are talking about that and not suicides, etc. I haven't looked in a while but gun murders were about 8500 out of about 320 million.

So you think taking guns away from people like me or you will make any statistical or even any conversational change in those numbers?

PS......we even know the type firearm and it isn't AR 15 which is the thread topic...........

Sucides can be reduced by storage laws? This year alone to date. 23 children have shot people. This guy? Just one sick puppy imo...with a history of domestic violence did he not? Yet he still acquired....

No matter how it's sliced or diced, statistically (GD per capita) the U.S. is off the charts, dirty bath water, useless for comparative purposes to other civilized nations because it's so far off, an "outrider".

How many mass shootings since columbine? The theatre? sandy Hook.
As I said R, the means and willpower to move mountains, literally when foreigners killed 3,000 on 9/11. But for the 25,000 or 30,000 that die each year.....

no will at all.

"Right to bear arms"
"right to life and liberty". For thousands, each year that right is buried and then forgotten. See the same old same since Columbine. No doubt, nothing will change after this one either....

i might think in a civilized society, the right to life, scuz the pun. Trumps the right to bear arms.

and that "right" was given when people used muskets, could get 2 shots a minute....
dont see how limiting magazines, clamping down on storage laws, and more infringes on the right to bear arms.

the States is a great country. But messed up and we'll in its way to imploding.