some people need to read regulations

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Courts have difficulty convicting someone based on the interpretation of one word. A similar instance is the HTA offence of tinted windows. The section said "substantially"...the courts here would not convict when there was no definition of "substantially". To put "immediately" into context, if I shoot an animal at 1000 yds away, in very rough terrain, there's no way I can tag that animal "immediately". Same goes for the party hunting scenario. Conversely, an animal shot at 50 yds can be tagged "immediately". Charges laid would have to be based on the circumstances and the totality of the evidence needed to support a conviction.

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see this is where i disagree.... respectfully of course.. people think that the term immediately means the second you kill you have to tag it.. it doesn't.. obviously you can not tag an animal if you are not standing directly over it.. understandably it takes time to travel to it, track it etc.. as per the definition of immediately, it means now, without delay and without any intervening time or space. .. which is where the term immediate comes in.. they don't want people to shoot an animal, call their buddy , meet for breakfast, go back home to load up the quad, then go out in 2 hours to try to find that downed animal.. i believe the term is meant to bring on an immediate attempt to track, locate and tag the animal. that is how i was taught to interpret that section of the regs and the term immediately when it is used in this scenario..

So here is the link for the Ontario Fish and Wildlife Act:
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/97f41
and the Hunting Regulations :
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/980665#BK2

There is a section in the hunting regulations devoted to hunting in a party and a section specific stipulates this very issue:

22.1 If a member of a party kills a species of big game under the authority of a licence that is held by another member of the party, the holder of the licence shall,
(a) immediately after the kill and at the site of the kill attach the seal provided with the licence or licence tag to the wildlife in the manner indicated on the seal; and
(b) keep the seal attached to the wildlife while it is being transported. O. Reg. 32/04, s. 4; O. Reg. 54/10, s. 7.

This is how the situation you guys are talking about is going to be judged on. In my opinion, there has to be three conditions for the immediate tagging to enforced. One, the hunter has to be in a party and the party has to have a proper seal for the animal killed. Two, the hunter(s) have to be have killed the animal and at the kill site. Three, the seal has to be present for the tagging. Gilroy has presented a condition where the seal has to be humped through terrain. Until the seal is actually present, the condition of immediate doesn't qualify. Now once the seal gets there, any delay on tagging the animal, you run the risk of a CO charging you. For example, I am sure the CO wouldn't care if the guy who had to hump 4km stopped to catch his breath, especially if he is an elderly person (but I would ask if he really had to walk 4km or if there were other options, like an atv ride, to go get him simply so he didn't have to walk that distance). However, if the guy stopped to open a congratulatory beer after his walk rather than the seal, well, then the CO could decide to lay a charge depending on his mood. Most groups have the tag owner/holder somewhere in the middle of the group so they can get to the kill site with the least amount of fuss.

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Originally Posted by buckluck_9pt

see this is where i disagree.... respectfully of course.. people think that the term immediately means the second you kill you have to tag it.. it doesn't.. obviously you can not tag an animal if you are not standing directly over it.. understandably it takes time to travel to it, track it etc.. as per the definition of immediately, it means now, without delay and without any intervening time or space. .. which is where the term immediate comes in.. they don't want people to shoot an animal, call their buddy , meet for breakfast, go back home to load up the quad, then go out in 2 hours to try to find that downed animal.. i believe the term is meant to bring on an immediate attempt to track, locate and tag the animal. that is how i was taught to interpret that section of the regs and the term immediately when it is used in this scenario..

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So, are you saying that a guy that arrows a deer badly, and backs out for 6-8 hours has committed an offence ?

If Im not mistaken the word "immediately" in this case/context is "Tag it immediately once its found". The law is pretty clear that we have to do everything we can to recover fatality shot animals and those that are just wounded. That's not always possible for many reasons. You shoot a trophy buck, it runs 200 yards into a raging near freezing river. Gets caught in a couple rocks, deadfall. You know exactly where it is, you know its dead. You also know trying to recover it, you very well could end up dead to........

Do I always agree with it?
nope, especially after tracking a bear one night in deep bush with no audible death moan.
No way to know if its dead or very much alive and seriously angry at the world.
Getting it out of the bush and to the road where there was some light so it could put in the back of the truck was not fun.
Could easily lose the tag while dragging it.

Oh hello officer you say when you clear the bush at the roadside where the truck is..........How your evening?
The CO looking for a tag and not seeing one is thinking "a lot better than yours"

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Originally Posted by Dythbringer

So here is the link for the Ontario Fish and Wildlife Act:
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/97f41
and the Hunting Regulations :
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/980665#BK2

There is a section in the hunting regulations devoted to hunting in a party and a section specific stipulates this very issue:

22.1 If a member of a party kills a species of big game under the authority of a licence that is held by another member of the party, the holder of the licence shall,
(a) immediately after the kill and at the site of the kill attach the seal provided with the licence or licence tag to the wildlife in the manner indicated on the seal; and
(b) keep the seal attached to the wildlife while it is being transported. O. Reg. 32/04, s. 4; O. Reg. 54/10, s. 7.

This is how the situation you guys are talking about is going to be judged on. In my opinion, there has to be three conditions for the immediate tagging to enforced. One, the hunter has to be in a party and the party has to have a proper seal for the animal killed. Two, the hunter(s) have to be have killed the animal and at the kill site. Three, the seal has to be present for the tagging. Gilroy has presented a condition where the seal has to be humped through terrain. Until the seal is actually present, the condition of immediate doesn't qualify. Now once the seal gets there, any delay on tagging the animal, you run the risk of a CO charging you. For example, I am sure the CO wouldn't care if the guy who had to hump 4km stopped to catch his breath, especially if he is an elderly person (but I would if he had to walk 4km or if there were other options, like an atv ride, to go get him simply so he didn't have to walk that distance). However, if the guy stopped to open a congratulatory beer after his walk rather than the seal, well, then the CO could decide to lay a charge depending on his mood. Most groups have the tag owner/holder somewhere in the middle of the group so they can get to the kill site with the least amount of fuss.

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exactly.. thank you, i couldn't have said it better.. and a lot of people have to realize too, that most CO's will try to figure out by talking to you and the party as to what happened to determine if there was that attempt to immediately retrieve and tag that animal.. sometimes we take what is in black and white a little too much to heart.. 99% of the CO's know that there is adrenaline and excitement, not to mention fatigue from what could be a long hike to get that animal.. most people would take a breather and stop to admire their kill.. if a CO happens to be watching, if you take 5 minutes to rest and admire before tagging, most wouldn't do anything... here's an example.. by some people's terms of immediate, literally 99% of all hunters could be charged by not immediately tagging an animal.. think about it.. what do we all do after shooting a deer or bear, etc? we give that animal a half hour or hour, sometimes more if we determine by the blood on an arrow if it was a poor hit... by some's interpretation of the law, that would not be an immediate course to track and tag... but, we also have to give the animal time to expire, so again, you have to take the term immediate into perspective...

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Originally Posted by buckluck_9pt

exactly.. thank you, i couldn't have said it better.. and a lot of people have to realize too, that most CO's will try to figure out by talking to you and the party as to what happened to determine if there was that attempt to immediately retrieve and tag that animal.. sometimes we take what is in black and white a little too much to heart.. 99% of the CO's know that there is adrenaline and excitement, not to mention fatigue from what could be a long hike to get that animal.. most people would take a breather and stop to admire their kill.. if a CO happens to be watching, if you take 5 minutes to rest and admire before tagging, most wouldn't do anything... here's an example.. by some people's terms of immediate, literally 99% of all hunters could be charged by not immediately tagging an animal.. think about it.. what do we all do after shooting a deer or bear, etc? we give that animal a half hour or hour, sometimes more if we determine by the blood on an arrow if it was a poor hit... by some's interpretation of the law, that would not be an immediate course to track and tag... but, we also have to give the animal time to expire, so again, you have to take the term immediate into perspective...

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But we aren't talking of time to get to the kill site (that is covered under the spoilage part of the FWCA) but the term immediate in context of tagging a downed animal in a party hunting situation. The regulations state immediately after the kill and at the site of the kill. So whether it takes you 5 mins or 4 hours to get to where the animal died is irrelevant in regards to tagging the animal but if you get to the site where the animal expired and start to dick around, then you are entering a grey area and you are at the whim of the CO at that point.

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

So, are you saying that a guy that arrows a deer badly, and backs out for 6-8 hours has committed an offence ?

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no, god, actually the contrary.. okay, i don't mean to ruffle feathers or cause heartaches, i rather enjoy these honest, open , friendly conversations.. .lol.. but i agree with this, i will give you my scenario every single time i hunt, i will give you my scenario when i shot my buck this november.. i shot him at 45 yards but when he ran i saw my bolt still sticking out of him.. he ran and jumped the creek and i saw my bolt break off.. he did tumble and fall but i lost sight of him. i still had my tag but i still called my buddy hunting about 150 yards from me to let him know ( i wanted him to know i would be getting down and looking around ).. he said he saw him fall but wasn't 100% if he was dead or not.. i agreed as the position of my bolt had me worried.. so , i got down, met him, and we looked for sign of blood to see if it was a good hit or not.. didn't find any.. so, we stood and talked for 10 minutes, keeping an eye on where we last saw him ( in case he got up and walked off)... didn't see anything, so we started to track him , in this case, we just started walking slowly to where we last saw him... ended up coming over a crest and see him laying there.. walked up, confirmed he was dead ( nudged him a few times on the rump with our foot), high fived and then tagged him, drug him out and took pictures then field dressed him... i do this every time, give him a few minutes, get down to find blood and/or bolt and analyze the blood and see if it's a good hit or not.. always give them time to expire, otherwise you just push them over and over and before you know it you're on someone else's property which opens up a whole new can of worms.. so, short story, no i don't believe allowing anyone time to allow the animal to die, is commiting an offense.. now, they would be if they didn't make an attempt to track or find sign of what kind of shot they are dealing with.. this is why i always get down and find my bolt or signs of blood to see what kind of a shot i am dealing with so i know roughly how much time to allow that animal to expire..

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

I agree with JBen. The big difference is, they were actively "hunting", with firearms, with full intent of killing the deer.

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No, sorry but just simply no.

What you just said is the same as saying that someone is actively hunting deer with an antlered only tag in hand. They kick up a doe and it runs on to the road and gets hit by a car, they are now poachers for scaring that deer into a car and being killed.

They are actively hunting and they have a hunting license for that but they did not even pull the trigger, this was not a mistaken identity, this was not a ricochet hitting a deer, they were not even close to where the deer was when it ran into a fence and killed itself, this has nothing to do with them and their hunting.

If you are driving into your hunting camp on the Saturday before the Monday opener and you hit a deer with your truck, you cannot use a tag for it as it is not the season, you can claim it. Now on Monday you are driving and you hit a deer, do the rules change because there is now an active hunt and you are heading into your hunting location?

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Originally Posted by JBen

If Im not mistaken the word "immediately" in this case/context is "Tag it immediately once its found". The law is pretty clear that we have to do everything we can to recover fatality shot animals and those that are just wounded. That's not always possible for many reasons. You shoot a trophy buck, it runs 200 yards into a raging near freezing river. Gets caught in a couple rocks, deadfall. You know exactly where it is, you know its dead. You also know trying to recover it, you very well could end up dead to........

Do I always agree with it?
nope, especially after tracking a bear one night in deep bush with no audible death moan.
No way to know if its dead or very much alive and seriously angry at the world.
Getting it out of the bush and to the road where there was some light so it could put in the back of the truck was not fun.
Could easily lose the tag while dragging it.

Oh hello officer you say when you clear the bush at the roadside where the truck is..........How your evening?
The CO looking for a tag and not seeing one is thinking "a lot better than yours"

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Exactly! "Immediately" can mean different things depending on the circumstances....party hunting pretty much eliminates the possibility of "immediately". Once an animal has been shot, the shooter must notify all party members of the kill. At that point, the tag holder, if not the shooter must make his/her way to the kill site, and once there, immediately place the tag on the animal.......period! The post that started this, was that the game could not be field dressed before the tag is affixed. There is simply no mention of this offence in the Act.
Any CO that has worked in the north, knows full well that the tag may take some time to arrive at the kill site. All circumstances will be considered by the investigator, before any charges are laid. However, the field dressing of the animal won't play into the equation when any time between the kill and the tag getting to the site is justified. It may, if the shooter is the tag holder.
The intent of the legislation is to ensure a game animal is tagged before removal from the kill site, and certainly during transport of that animal.

Back to what is, and what isn't hunting.

Theres the letter of the law, and........ the COs discretion.

Just because your a "photographer" talking pics of a buck, that then runs into traffic and gets smoked...Doesnt mean your going to charged with hunting without.....Just means at that point in time, you meet the legal definition......

As with so many of these topics where the letter is either ambiguous and poorly defined, or maybe its clearly worded, and there is no grey area. Doesn't mean depending on what the CO sees or finds out that the book is going to be thrown at you.

Letter of the Law also says.
Out of Season fish must be released immediately. That is very clear. It doesn't mean in 20 seconds while taking pics, it doesn't mean in 10 or 5 seconds. It means immediately without delay......

And finally thankfully the MNR had to actually spell it out, and say yes, if you take pics of an Out of Season species.....Do so at your own risk, you are "breaking the law".