some people need to read regulations

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March 30th, 2017, 12:26 PM
rick_iles

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fox

No, sorry but just simply no.

What you just said is the same as saying that someone is actively hunting deer with an antlered only tag in hand. They kick up a doe and it runs on to the road and gets hit by a car, they are now poachers for scaring that deer into a car and being killed.

They are actively hunting and they have a hunting license for that but they did not even pull the trigger, this was not a mistaken identity, this was not a ricochet hitting a deer, they were not even close to where the deer was when it ran into a fence and killed itself, this has nothing to do with them and their hunting.

If you are driving into your hunting camp on the Saturday before the Monday opener and you hit a deer with your truck, you cannot use a tag for it as it is not the season, you can claim it. Now on Monday you are driving and you hit a deer, do the rules change because there is now an active hunt and you are heading into your hunting location?

If, if,if.......if your sister had nuts she would be your brother!!!! Your response is totally different from the OP scenario. I would not want to test your first scenario in court !!
March 30th, 2017, 12:26 PM
buckluck_9pt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dythbringer

But we aren't talking of time to get to the kill site (that is covered under the spoilage part of the FWCA) but the term immediate in context of tagging a downed animal in a party hunting situation. The regulations state immediately after the kill and at the site of the kill. So whether it takes you 5 mins or 4 hours to get to where the animal died is irrelevant in regards to tagging the animal but if you get to the site where the animal expired and start to dick around, then you are entering a grey area and you are at the whim of the CO at that point.

true, BUT the time it would take a hunter to get to that downed animal must be taken into consideration when trying to enforce immediate... if a hunter shoots a deer, elk, moose etc at 500 yards in rough terrain, understandably it will take more time to get to the animal.. .if a deer hunter shoots a deer at 20 yards and makes no attempt to retrieve it for 4 or 5 hours without attempting to find an arrow or bolt or look at the sight of impact for blood signs, etc.. then they are in a situation where they could be in that grey area and could be putting themselves in a situation where a CO might not believe they made that immediate attempt.. like i mentioned before, immediately at the kill site you must tag the animal.. we are all in agreement with that.. what i am saying is that a CO isn't going to come down on you for not immediately tagging the animal 5 minutes after shooting it if you have to lug yourself and gear 500 yards or so to get to the animal.. i guess what i am saying is that some of this " what is immediate fall under" has got to be left to common sense... if i shoot a moose at 500 yards at 10:03am , i won't get charged for not immediately tagging it if i don't have it tagged by 10:05 am, seeing how i have to travel 500 plus yards through rough terrain with my gear.. now, if a CO happens to be watching you hunt for some reason, watches you shoot a deer and it dies in the field 40 yards from you and you take 2 hours before coming out of the bush, look at it, walk back to your truck, have a smoke and a coffee , etc, then go to the deer 2 hours later to retrieve and tag it, they might come to you and question why it took so long, etc etc... we had many stories from former CO's in college, also by brother's friend's dad is a CO, or was until he retired a while back.. we ran a bait and tackle shop and had many coffee's with him , heard many stories and tales.. he knew i was taking the fish and wildlife program so he and i talked a lot and he knew a couple of the teachers i had.. asked him lots of questions growing up too, and man i will tell you, those CO's have one hell of a hard job.. like this discussion has proven, there are so many corners and grey area's that they have to watch and be aware of.. anyways, i am of on afternoons and have to high tail my butt to work.. keep the discussions coming guys.. . lots of good points being made... oh, btw, haven't had an email response from the local CO here I emailed.. once i find out some feed back, i will gladly post..
March 30th, 2017, 12:30 PM
rick_iles

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBen

Back to what is, and what isn't hunting.

Theres the letter of the law, and........ the COs discretion.

Just because your a "photographer" talking pics of a buck, that then runs into traffic and gets smoked...Doesnt mean your going to charged with hunting without.....Just means at that point in time, you meet the legal definition......

As with so many of these topics where the letter is either ambiguous and poorly defined, or maybe its clearly worded, and there is no grey area. Doesn't mean depending on what the CO sees or finds out that the book is going to be thrown at you.

Letter of the Law also says.
Out of Season fish must be released immediately. That is very clear. It doesn't mean in 20 seconds while taking pics, it doesn't mean in 10 or 5 seconds. It means immediately without delay......

And finally thankfully the MNR had to actually spell it out, and say yes, if you take pics of an Out of Season species.....Do so at your own risk, you are "breaking the law".

I think the difference between a photographer and the OP situation, is they had firearms and their intent was to kill a deer.
March 30th, 2017, 12:35 PM
JBen

agreed Rick.
just attempting to add some context, where its "simple" to see/know the individual isn't "hunting" has no intent to hurt/injure or kill, and yet can be charged with hunting offences. The recent case with the two Yahoos that thought it would be fun to catch a ride on a Bulls back. The harassment charge was a no brainer. Shame the crown plea bargaining the hunting without a license away.

So if there are guns present (cased or not).....
Intent is pretty clear
March 30th, 2017, 12:36 PM
Dythbringer

Quote:

Originally Posted by buckluck_9pt

true, BUT the time it would take a hunter to get to that downed animal must be taken into consideration when trying to enforce immediate... if a hunter shoots a deer, elk, moose etc at 500 yards in rough terrain, understandably it will take more time to get to the animal.. .if a deer hunter shoots a deer at 20 yards and makes no attempt to retrieve it for 4 or 5 hours without attempting to find an arrow or bolt or look at the sight of impact for blood signs, etc.. then they are in a situation where they could be in that grey area and could be putting themselves in a situation where a CO might not believe they made that immediate attempt.. like i mentioned before, immediately at the kill site you must tag the animal.. we are all in agreement with that.. what i am saying is that a CO isn't going to come down on you for not immediately tagging the animal 5 minutes after shooting it if you have to lug yourself and gear 500 yards or so to get to the animal.. i guess what i am saying is that some of this " what is immediate fall under" has got to be left to common sense... if i shoot a moose at 500 yards at 10:03am , i won't get charged for not immediately tagging it if i don't have it tagged by 10:05 am, seeing how i have to travel 500 plus yards through rough terrain with my gear.. now, if a CO happens to be watching you hunt for some reason, watches you shoot a deer and it dies in the field 40 yards from you and you take 2 hours before coming out of the bush, look at it, walk back to your truck, have a smoke and a coffee , etc, then go to the deer 2 hours later to retrieve and tag it, they might come to you and question why it took so long, etc etc... we had many stories from former CO's in college, also by brother's friend's dad is a CO, or was until he retired a while back.. we ran a bait and tackle shop and had many coffee's with him , heard many stories and tales.. he knew i was taking the fish and wildlife program so he and i talked a lot and he knew a couple of the teachers i had.. asked him lots of questions growing up too, and man i will tell you, those CO's have one hell of a hard job.. like this discussion has proven, there are so many corners and grey area's that they have to watch and be aware of.. anyways, i am of on afternoons and have to high tail my butt to work.. keep the discussions coming guys.. . lots of good points being made... oh, btw, haven't had an email response from the local CO here I emailed.. once i find out some feed back, i will gladly post..

I think what you are arguing falls more under the abandonment of meat section of the FWCA. This is extremely loosely worded so that there is a lot of wiggle room for hunters to have the time to get to the kill site depending on the circumstances. For example, I am a shooter for a group pushing a block and I shoot a deer, as long as I don't leave the deer to spoil, I can wait until the group is together to go recover that deer and I won't be charged.
March 30th, 2017, 12:37 PM
rick_iles

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBen

agreed Rick.
just attempting to add some context, where its "simple" to see/know the individual isn't "hunting" has no intent to hurt/injure or kill, and yet can be charged with hunting offences. The recent case with the two Yahoos that thought it would be fun to catch a ride on a Bulls back. The harassment charge was a no brainer. Shame the crown plea bargaining the hunting without a license away.

So if there are guns present (cased or not).....
Intent is pretty clear

Yup!!!! Pretty hard to say you weren't hunting when walking through a swamp barking like a dog, carrying a firearm !!!
March 30th, 2017, 12:43 PM
rick_iles

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dythbringer

I think what you are arguing falls more under the abandonment of meat section of the FWCA. This is extremely loosely worded so that there is a lot of wiggle room for hunters to have the time to get to the kill site depending on the circumstances. For example, I am a shooter for a group pushing a block and I shoot a deer, as long as I don't leave the deer to spoil, I can wait until the group is together to go recover that deer and I won't be charged.

I wouldn't want to test that one out with a CO that's had a bad day. I know of a guy that was nearly charged for doing the same thing. The only thing that saved him, he convinced the CO that he was gathering up his stuff before leaving his stand to get the deer...
March 30th, 2017, 12:48 PM
rick_iles

Quote:

Originally Posted by buckluck_9pt

true, BUT the time it would take a hunter to get to that downed animal must be taken into consideration when trying to enforce immediate... if a hunter shoots a deer, elk, moose etc at 500 yards in rough terrain, understandably it will take more time to get to the animal.. .if a deer hunter shoots a deer at 20 yards and makes no attempt to retrieve it for 4 or 5 hours without attempting to find an arrow or bolt or look at the sight of impact for blood signs, etc.. then they are in a situation where they could be in that grey area and could be putting themselves in a situation where a CO might not believe they made that immediate attempt.. like i mentioned before, immediately at the kill site you must tag the animal.. we are all in agreement with that.. what i am saying is that a CO isn't going to come down on you for not immediately tagging the animal 5 minutes after shooting it if you have to lug yourself and gear 500 yards or so to get to the animal.. i guess what i am saying is that some of this " what is immediate fall under" has got to be left to common sense... if i shoot a moose at 500 yards at 10:03am , i won't get charged for not immediately tagging it if i don't have it tagged by 10:05 am, seeing how i have to travel 500 plus yards through rough terrain with my gear.. now, if a CO happens to be watching you hunt for some reason, watches you shoot a deer and it dies in the field 40 yards from you and you take 2 hours before coming out of the bush, look at it, walk back to your truck, have a smoke and a coffee , etc, then go to the deer 2 hours later to retrieve and tag it, they might come to you and question why it took so long, etc etc... we had many stories from former CO's in college, also by brother's friend's dad is a CO, or was until he retired a while back.. we ran a bait and tackle shop and had many coffee's with him , heard many stories and tales.. he knew i was taking the fish and wildlife program so he and i talked a lot and he knew a couple of the teachers i had.. asked him lots of questions growing up too, and man i will tell you, those CO's have one hell of a hard job.. like this discussion has proven, there are so many corners and grey area's that they have to watch and be aware of.. anyways, i am of on afternoons and have to high tail my butt to work.. keep the discussions coming guys.. . lots of good points being made... oh, btw, haven't had an email response from the local CO here I emailed.. once i find out some feed back, i will gladly post..

I think you are starting to flip flop on your position!!!
March 30th, 2017, 01:01 PM
Dythbringer

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick_iles

I wouldn't want to test that one out with a CO that's had a bad day. I know of a guy that was nearly charged for doing the same thing. The only thing that saved him, he convinced the CO that he was gathering up his stuff before leaving his stand to get the deer...

OK, but you haven't made a move either way (either abandoning the deer or going to retrieve it). So how can you be charged with abandonment if you haven't actually left the shooting position? Also, your tag might not be the one the party uses to seal that deer. While I am not advocating leaving a deer which is either dead or soon to be dead for 2 hours, there isn't anything in the FWCA which states my recovery of the deer has to be within a set time period other than allowing it to become unsuitable for human consumption.
March 30th, 2017, 01:06 PM
rick_iles

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dythbringer

OK, but you haven't made a move either way (either abandoning the deer or going to retrieve it). So how can you be charged with abandonment if you haven't actually left the shooting position? Also, your tag might not be the one the party uses to seal that deer. While I am not advocating leaving a deer which is either dead or soon to be dead for 2 hours, there isn't anything in the FWCA which states my recovery of the deer has to be within a set time period other than allowing it to become unsuitable for human consumption.

It doesn't have anything to do with abandonment or allowing game to spoil. It's the "immediate" tagging requirement. In his case, he did have a tag...

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