EBR Proposal 012-8104;8105

Just some clarification on the 'mutt'....saw this in passing...

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Wolves (Canis lupus), coyotes (Canis latrans var.) and hybrids of coyotes are classified
as Furbearing Mammals under Schedule 1 of Ontario’s Fish and Wildlife Conservation
Act, 1997, R.S.O. 1999, Chapter 41. The eastern wolf is treated under the Act as a
subspecies of C. lupus, and will remain protected under the Act in this manner until the
scientific community makes a final determination on the proposal that the eastern wolf is
not a C. lupus. The Act currently affords it protection because (1) it is hybridized with C.
lupus and C, latrans, two species protected under the Act, and (2) it is difficult to
distinguish from these species in the wild (i.e., it is treated as a look-alike under the Act).
Full recognition of the eastern wolf as a separate species under the Act would require
an amendment to add it to the list of species under Schedule 1 (Furbearing Mammals).

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The amendment is in process under the EBR 012-8105

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Proposed approach for Algonquin Wolf

The Algonquin Wolf is difficult to visually distinguish from coyote and other types of wolves, the hunting and trapping of which are regulated under the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act (FWCA). Hunting and trapping of wolves and coyotes is currently prohibited in Algonquin Provincial Park and 42 townships surrounding the park. This prohibition was established in 2004 to avoid the accidental harvest of Algonquin Wolf mistaken for coyotes. The ministry is proposing amendments to O. Reg. 670/98 (Open Seasons – Wildlife) under the FWCA that would expand upon the current prohibition by closing the open season for wolf and coyote in core Algonquin Wolf occurrence areas. That proposal, titled “Amendments to wolf and coyote hunting and trapping regulations under the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act in response to amendments to Ontario Regulation 230/08 (Species at Risk in Ontario List) under the Endangered Species Act, 2007 for Algonquin Wolf”, can be found at EBR Posting 012-8104.
Because of the difficulty in visually identifying Algonquin Wolf, it is proposed that an exemption from section 9 (with conditions) of the ESA be provided to persons who lawfully hunt or trap outside of the core occurrence areas identified in the proposed amendment to O. Reg. 670/98. These proposals will help to protect the species within its known core occurrence areas, while alleviating confusion outside the core occurrence areas that may arise because of the difficulty to visually distinguish the Algonquin Wolf from coyote or other wolf species.
It is proposed that exemption from section 9 (species protection provision) of the ESA apply to Algonquin Wolf if the following conditions are met:
• The person is hunting or trapping (including protection of property activities) in accordance with the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act and its regulations; and
• The person is outside of the identified core Algonquin Wolf occurrence areas
This proposed policy approach is intended to provide certainty around interim direction for the protection and management of Algonquin Wolf in Ontario while the legislative requirements under the ESA are being developed, including a science based-recovery strategy and a government response statement within the timeframes afforded under the legislation.

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These Wolf Occurrence areas are now known because of GPS tracking collars. The Wolves have been leaving the APP in the winter in search for food (Deer) and venturing into now known areas...this is why these new MWUs have been put under the new restrictions...

if your a real keener....have a read of this paper...it will dispel any of your questions about the Hybrids....

http://www.algonquinpark.on.ca/pdf/2...lf_ontario.pdf

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Originally Posted by terrym

This is all a veiled attempt to incrementally kill off all forms of sport hunting and trapping.

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This is far from any truth...hunting and trapping is an important part of the Management plan and a much needed resource to the MNR...you just have to understand the bigger picture when restrictions are applied.

You've lost me on the whole Coyotes problem JBen....they are not protected in the south (where human conflict is greater). Lots around and open season. Not many guys hunt them and even then, the success rates are low.

So they are flourishing with no restrictions, eating small game to control the numbers and the rabbits cyclical life-cycle continues as it always has...they aren't packing up and moving toward the APP..they are being eaten by local Coyote populations.

So, as predators, they are doing what they are designed to do and eat and control critters that would otherwise run amuck.

In the APP region, they want a greater Wolf population so they want to restrict killing them. The 'hiccup', is that they are often mistaken for yotes, so they also put on restrictions on them to protect the Hybrids. A good management plan unless your a trapper or hunter in those ares, but that is the give and take required to manage the Eco-system.

Mike, the area where the protection extends now is (not sure right word) fair. As I said draw a ring, APP alone is 1.2 million sq km. They want to add 36 more townships, and protect Coyotes as well as these mutts. Again these aren't "wolves" Mike. As you said often mistaken for Coyotes...Funny that. Call a spade a spade, honestly it ok to do so. They are mutts, offspring from an invasive species thats exploding and remnants of actual wolves. Given there are no wolves in APP anymore, or very very very few, they are being further and further and further diluted. They are no more wolves than a beagle is a staff.

Does calling them what they actually are scare you? Has it crossed your ming that the actual reason for A) changing their name the that oh so romantic wolf and now special "Algonquin Wolf" and B) the decision to act now ( lets be completely willfully blind to all other concerns currently) is they knew their dirty little secret was about to blown open.

AKA the research (you know scientific research) released this week?
Funny timing all this don't you think?

Flourishing: Maybe not quite (not sure) but yeah Id go with that. How does that warrant more protection? They aren't threatened, not by much of anything. Do you or the champions have scientific data to show that? And you keep completely ignoring all other facets, like primary food (MDB being substantially down) like Grouse/Rabbit/Fox apparently down (Food types other species rely on like Great Greys, Great Horneds, Snowies and more) PS do you know how important Beavers are to APP??? Ripple effects, like the expansion to the south and more....living in a vacuum. You accuse hunters of tunnel vision and self interest. Pot meet kettle. And ASAIK its never worked, has ultimately led to problems, sometimes big that ultimately does no good for any of them. Witness so many, just yesterday Cormies.

And to highlight your "hypocrisy"
Hunting and trapping is an important part of management:
So why are you arguing to remove it.

Yep you didn't need to quote part of the paper verifying they (like bears) are ranging further and further south, out of the park.

why?
Theres only two possible answers.
1) Theres too many
2) Not enough food especially in winter

Aka the parks capacity is at its threshold. So good of you to interfere, and sacrifice not only species low on the food chain (already possibly in trouble) but also Great Greys, Great Horneds, Snowies that migrate south in winter in search of much needed food and more.......

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Originally Posted by JBen

Mike, the area where the protection extends now is (not sure right word) fair. As I said draw a ring, APP alone is 1.2 million sq km. They want to add 36 more townships, and protect Coyotes as well as these mutts. Again these aren't "wolves" Mike. As you said often mistaken for Coyotes...Funny that. Call a spade a spade, honestly it ok to do so. They are mutts, offspring from an invasive species thats exploding and remnants of actual wolves. Given there are no wolves in APP anymore, or very very very few, they are being further and further and further diluted. They are no more wolves than a beagle is a staff.

Does calling them what they actually are scare you? Has it crossed your ming that the actual reason for A) changing their name and B) the decision to act now ( lets be completely willfully blind to all other concerns currently) is they knew their dirty little secret was about to blown open.

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First off...take a look at the map at link...the new 'restricted area's are not huge...rather small in fact looking at the bigger picture;

https://apps.mnr.gov.on.ca/public/fi...hanges-map.pdf

2nd; go back to post #81....scientist have moved past the 'mutt' stage and they WILL be classified as a bon a fide 'sub-species'...which will also come under the protection as 'threatened' in the FWCA ....pretty much a done deal...like it or not..it's a recognized Hybrid

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Originally Posted by JBen

Flourishing: Maybe not quite (not sure) but yeah Id go with that. How does that warrant more protection? They aren't threatened, not by much of anything. Do you or the champions have scientific data to show that? And you keep completely ignoring all other facets, like primary food (MDB being substantially down) like Grouse/Rabbit/Fox apparently down (Food types other species rely on like Great Greys, Great Howns, Snowies and more) ripple effects, like the expansion to the south and more....living in a vacuum. You accuse hunters of tunnel vision and self interest. Pot meet kettle. And ASAIK its never worked, has ultimately led to problems, sometimes big that ultimately does no good for any of them. Witness so many, just yesterday Cormies

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You're still talking about coyotes ...the reason the small critters are disappearing in the south is because the coyote population in the south is going unchecked...not because of MNR restrictions, but due to lack of trapping and hunting. Blame guys for not killing yotes in Jan/Feb or townships that refuse to put bounties on them. They are and will still be open season in most of the south !!

The proposed restrictions on hunting them is only up north and is only a small area where the Wolves winter. As I said earlier..it affects only a small percentage of trappers and hunters in those areas.

1.2m sq miles isn't large enough?

I am looking at the big picture, its you that's not. Not thinking about all things that will be affected, you hadntt even considered what Urban Sprawl in the S is doing until I spelled it out for you. Completely oblivious to the fact they aren't actually threatened, until now when it was spelled out for you. Your one report says Beaver were substantially down...(Me I don't know but its your report).

Do you know how important Beavers are to the Park? Not as a food source (hey are but also but for the parks ecosystem?

Argued that G/R/F were at worst collateral damage, nit down and it had to be spelled out,, thats bad news for Birds of Prey (also protected), and you want to substantially increase the competition for food? had to spell it out that the reason bears are ranging further and further and further south, had to spell it out.

Tell me Mike, what happens when deer who have the same kind of protection in numerous provincial parks..........

And your still completely oblivious as to why Coyotes pose a problem.

Yup..I'm totally oblivious ..as the where your rants keep going.

You've mixed up to many issue's to keep track off..confusing issue affecting the APP and surrounding areas with the Urban sprawl in the south....Coyotes in the South with coyotes in the north...

I can't try to explain it any better, my links have explained it thoroughly, but you're still fixated on an issue that has little to do with the Algonquin Wolf in the APP...

Do your part and get and shot a few Yote's this winter..save a rabbit :)

Been a slice...ta ta...

1) hardly "rants" Mike, but you know what they say when people realize their arguements have no traction. They start resorting to...

2) "mixed up". What you call not looking at "the big picture". If it's too much for you, to look beyond just one or two closely tied, obvious things such as say "just Deer and Moose" fine but you see Mike ecosystems/biodiversity etc are big things, where small changes can have big ripples and we really should weighing it all, including how it might impact Birds of Prey, and more.

as well as say, how things are going with Coyotes. Not hard to see that. Not hard at all to project out some years, we aren't talking about A) just "wolves" but B) coyotes hybrids/mutts and Coyotes. Do the math.

Etc
etc
etc

you say its hunter whining about not being able to hunt deer. Or moaning about dwindling deer numbers. Etc etc

no it's more than that, a lot more

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Originally Posted by MikePal

This is far from any truth...hunting and trapping is an important part of the Management plan and a much needed resource to the MNR...you just have to understand the bigger picture when restrictions are applied.

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Lmao , I'd love to see you tell that to all the trappers that are losing an integral part of their trap line management

[COLOR=#1D2129]PUBLIC INPUT COORDINATOR
[COLOR=#1D2129]Ministry of Natural Resources and Forestry
[COLOR=#1D2129]Policy Division, Species Conservation Policy Branch
[COLOR=#1D2129]Wildlife Section
[COLOR=#1D2129]300 Water St
[COLOR=#1D2129]Peterborough, ON K9J 8M5
[COLOR=#1D2129]RE: EBR Registry Number 012-8104
[COLOR=#1D2129]Dear Public Input Coordinator,
[COLOR=#1D2129]On behalf of the Ontario Fur Managers Federation we thank you for the opportunity to respond to this EBR posting regarding the amendment to wolf and coyote hunting and trapping seasons under the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act for Algonquin Wolf. The OFMF wants our objection noted to the recent renaming of the Eastern Wolf in Ontario to the Algonquin Wolf. This renaming was not based on conclusive scientific data, but hypnotized simulations by Rutledge and White. The research and data that Theberge provided and that was accepted at the time led to the protection of Eastern Wolf in 42 Townships around Algonquin Park in 2004. This has since been proven and discredited as some of the research data was purposely altered or misrepresented. Yet the search to create an Iconic or Special Wolf for Ontario and the Park continues. This causes the OFMF and our members to question the motives or objectives to further areas being protected.
[COLOR=#1D2129]The OFMF is opposed to and does not support further protection of Algonquin wolf by prohibiting hunting and trapping of wolves and coyotes in three additional core areas. We base this stance on the Evaluation Report for Algonquin Wolf which was provided as a link for further information in this EBR Posting.
[COLOR=#1D2129]• It is stated in this document that the reduction or ban in hunting and trapping in the adjacent 42 protected areas reduced the human caused mortality threat (protection of property still allowed) however resulted in increased natural mortality rates in Eastern Wolf.
[COLOR=#1D2129]• The threat from trapping and hunting in unprotected areas around the protected areas is not increasing.
[COLOR=#1D2129]• The general consensus in this document is that historical and continued sympatric distribution of Grey wolf, Coyote and Eastern wolf will continue to have widespread and longstanding hybridization among
[COLOR=#1D2129]The Canis Lupus and two of its subspecies
[COLOR=#1D2129]• The intermediate size of the Algonquin Wolf has been attributed to hybridization with Grey Wolves and Coyote.
[COLOR=#1D2129]• COSEWIC acknowledges that “we lack enough specimens that have been collected before coyotes were present to characterize a pure Eastern Wolf”
[COLOR=#1D2129]The OFMF believes that the above information quoted proves that protecting Algonquin Wolves by banning hunting and trapping in the proposed areas in this EBR will lead to a higher population of Algonquin/Eastern Wolf or a recovery of them. This will only lead to higher concentrations of Grey Wolf and Coyotes, thus increasing hybridization with any increase in Algonquin/Eastern Wolf. The natural mortality rate was quoted as increasing and having a significant effect on the population in the existing protected areas.
[COLOR=#1D2129]Also in this same document referenced above is the Ontario Status Assessment (COSSARO REPORT), which states the following:
[COLOR=#1D2129]• 3.1.1 Criterion A- Decline in total number or mature individuals
[COLOR=#1D2129]Does not apply/insufficient information. The Algonquin Wolf populations appear to be stable (COSEWIC 2015)
[COLOR=#1D2129]• 3.1.3 Criterion C – Small and declining number of mature individuals
[COLOR=#1D2129]Does not apply. No Evidence of a population decline
[COLOR=#1D2129]• 3.1.4. Criterion D – Very small or restricted total population
[COLOR=#1D2129]Threatened. The Algonquin Wolf meets D1 because the estimated population of mature individuals is less than 1000. COSEWIC (2015) estimated that the minimum number of mature individuals in Ontario is 154, and the estimated maximum number of Algonquin Wolves inferred from sampled sites in Ontario is 488. However, under-sampling in some areas, e.g. between Georgian Bay and APP (L. Rutledge, pers. comm. 2015), combined with the need to genotype individuals in order to identify Algonquin Wolves, has almost certainly led to an underestimation of the Algonquin Wolf population size, and the actual number is most likely somewhere between 250 and 1000.
[COLOR=#1D2129]• 3.3.2. Rescue effect
[COLOR=#1D2129]Rescue effect is unlikely because individuals from geographically distant locations are unlikely to genetically cluster with APP wolves. Some rescue effect from Quebec populations may be feasible, although risks of human-caused mortality and hybridization with coyotes increase outside of protected areas.
[COLOR=#1D2129]The OFMF questions again how the Algonquin/Eastern Wolf gained the designation of Threatened by COSSARRO when in their own documentation quoted above states the population is stable, no evidence of decline, recognizes that population numbers are underestimated and recovery due to hybridization is not likely. Where is the scientific conclusive proof or evidence that is supposed to be considered by COSEWIC, COSSARRO and MNRF? OFMF has reviewed various research articles including “Whole –genome sequence shows that two endemic species of North American wolf are admixtures of the coyote and gray wolf” published in Science Advances on July 27, 2016, DNA Study Reveals the One and Only Wolf Species in North America” published in the New York Times on July 27, 2016, and The Wildlife Society “Supposed wolf species may actually be hybrids” published in the Wildlife Society on July 28, 2016. This recent research supports the inclusive results of wolf species. It is interesting that researcher L.Y.Rutledge Questions the samples years of Algonquin wolf that were used were in the 80’ and 90’ when hybridization was high in Ontario. We find this interesting as the samples that L.Y.Rutledge, P.J. Wilson, C.F.C. Klutsch, B.R. Patterson, B.N. White used from pre 64’ Algonquin Park did not contain all the data needed for DNA research on Eastern wolf. Therefore in the model that was built, they theorized what some of the missing data would have contained or look liked for their final report, “which the conclusions that the SNP array may suffer from ascertainment bias” as quoted on page 4 from the Science Advances article referenced above. Again we are left to question what the motive or expected objective to be achieved in the proposal actually is, as it is not clearly stated. What is the expected population change if further protection is imposed? What is the expected carrying capacity on the landscape for these three sub species of canine predators that are being proposed in these protected areas? When the carrying capacity in one area has been exceeded to support this overabundance, starvation, mange and other diseases threaten to diminish the presence of the Algonquin/Eastern Wolf; are more protected areas and wolf/ coyote protection really the only resolutions to be considered?
[COLOR=#1D2129]Also the OFMF questions what considerations have been made to the negative impacts on other furbearer, wildlife, livestock and human/wildlife conflicts. This has not been mentioned or addressed in this EBR and should be recognized and considered. The research shows that Beaver, Deer and Moose are the main diet of the Grey Wolf, Coyote and Eastern Wolf. It should be acknowledged by the MNRF that furbearers and wildlife populations will decrease as the Grey Wolf and Coyote population increases and even more if some Algonquin/Eastern wolf eventually shows some increase. The MNRF has the responsibility to manage all wildlife populations and programs. There should be no disregard for the species that have the ability to survive on their own without special protection and with human cause mortality through trapping and hunting over a specie that cannot survive outside of protected areas. Algonquin Park is a prime, living example of the decimation of beaver colonies and dead ponds that no longer can support other furbearers and wildlife. The Province has reintroduced Elk in certain areas in Ontario and two of the areas are in the proposal for protection of wolves and coyotes. It is interesting as predation on Elk by Wolves has had an impact in the population numbers of Elk! What consideration has been given to this program that the MNRF is supposed to be managing and involved in?
[COLOR=#1D2129]Also it is important to note that in the 1950’s and 60’s the Lands and Forest (called MNRF today) was trying to eradicate wolves in these and other areas of the Province with poison and bounties for hunters and trappers. Then in the later 50”s and 60’s there was an individual by the name of Mr. Pimlott who conducted documented research inside Algonquin Park. He was breeding grey wolves with coyotes inside the park in pens and releasing them. This is supported by documented research. There are also Parks Staff and Lands and Forest employees still living who remember picking up dead deer carcasses on local roads to feed captive wolves and coyote for this project.. This may have been the origin of the hybridization that is occurring with Grey wolves, coyotes and Algonquin/Eastern Wolves.
[COLOR=#1D2129]The OFMF recommends the following:
[COLOR=#1D2129]• That this proposal of more protected areas be rescinded due to the lack of scientific evidence and the fact that the population is considered stable
[COLOR=#1D2129]• That trappers and hunters be encouraged to harvest more wolves and coyotes right up to the current protected area of the park and 42 townships to allow the population of Algonquin/Eastern Wolf to maintain its current population.
[COLOR=#1D2129]In closing we would like to point out that whatever has created this anomaly within Algonquin Park and has allowed this Sub specie to exist should be observed and studied more before any further consideration of protection areas are proposed in the future. Natural existence of any specie is based on survival or adaptation of the fittest.
[COLOR=#1D2129]Sincerely on behalf of the OFMF Board of Directors and our members;
[COLOR=#1D2129]John Fitchett
[COLOR=#1D2129]OFMF President
[COLOR=#1D2129]cc: OFMF Board of Directors

Here is the response from the Ontario Fur managers