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Just to follow up, if an unlicensed person ran out to pick up your bird and it was still alive, he cannot touch it?
"Lol I guess if we're getting technical... I personally would not charge someone for that. But I would charge someone for shooting from a moving boat."
Thanks,
Justin
Good for you guys to snag a CO and get an opinion on chasing/shooting crippled waterfowl from a power boat. It's always good to see opinions backed up by some assertion of fact or by someone charged with enforcement of that.
Here's my dilemma, I still believe I'm correct based on conversations and being accompanied by various other hunters who have official capacities, so I went to:
Mark Robbins, Provincial Enforcement Specialist, Enforcement Branch, MNR, Peterborough. Some will know he writes an excellent column in the OFAH magazine called ...'Ask a CO'
He referred my question to Gerry Brunet, Assistant Regional Director of Wildlife enforcement Division who deals specifically with waterfowling and the ACT
Although I cannot share the contents of his email, I can share relevant sections as per this issue. As per my understanding it was confirmed to me that a loaded firearm was acceptable in a moving boat for the purpose of retrieving crippled birds.
Feel free to contact either:
Mark Robbins, MNR, Peterborough,7057551775
Gerry Brunet, Operations Manager, Wildlife Enforcement Directorate, Enforcement Branch 9053196974
Bottom line was shooting from a moving boat was totally legal. Now most of us would consider the safety of our actions as always.....FIRST!
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[COLOR=#1F497D]The general rule under the Migratory Birds Regulations (MBRs) regarding hunting from a power boat is found at ...
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[COLOR=#1F497D]s. 15(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5) and section 23.1, no person shall hunt a migratory bird
[COLOR=#1F497D](e) from any aircraft, sailboat, power boat, or motorized vehicle, or any vehicle to which a draught animal is attached.
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[COLOR=#1F497D]The MBRs offer an exception to the general rule for a power boat found at ...
[COLOR=#1F497D]s. 2(3) A reference in these Regulations to the use of a power boat does not include the use of a power boat when the motor is not in operation and forward progress has ceased.
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[COLOR=#1F497D]Further, s. 16(2) MBRs provides a notwithstanding clause to s. 15(1)(e) that allows for the use of a power boat when retrieving a migratory bird. In practice, this supports the requirement placed on a hunter under s. 16(1.1)(a).
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[COLOR=#1F497D]s. 16. (1.1) A person who kills, cripples or injures a migratory bird shall
[COLOR=#1F497D](a) immediately make every reasonable effort to retrieve the bird;
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[COLOR=#1F497D]s. 16. (2) Notwithstanding paragraph 15(1)(e), a power boat may be used for the purpose of retrieving a migratory bird.
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[COLOR=#1F497D]In summary, the MBRs don’t contain a section that prohibits the possession of a loaded firearm in a power boat. They do however prohibit the person from hunting a migratory bird from a power boat (as described in s. 15(1)(e) ), except where otherwise provided in the MBRs. In Ontario under the FWCA, there is a prohibition from having a loaded firearm in or on, or discharging a firearm from a conveyance. The FWCA appropriately makes reference to an exception to this offence if the person is hunting migratory birds from a motorboat in accordance with the MBRs. The specific section reads ...
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[COLOR=#1F497D]FWCA s. 17.(1) A person who is in an area usually inhabited by wildlife or who is on the way to or from an area usually inhabited by wildlife shall not,
[COLOR=#1F497D](a) have a loaded firearm in or on a conveyance or discharge a firearm from a conveyance, except if,
[COLOR=#1F497D](ii) the conveyance is a motorboat and the person is hunting migratory birds in accordance with the regulations under the Migratory Birds Convention Act,1994 (Canada);
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Although some CO's or other LEO's may feel it is illegal and therefore law a charge, based on what Krakadawn just posted, I highly doubt there would be a conviction in court.
It would come down to interpretation by the attending LEO.
I would like to see Justin Cooke provided with this material and hear his response.
Furthermore, I don't think anyone here is talking about flying across the lake full throttle firing away. I think most of the shooting is done while the boat is idling.
It's not uncommon for us to do it. Not just divers. A wounded goose on water can move... (and dive).Quote:
Originally Posted by brent
When we do it the motor may be running or we may even kill it. It's much smoother and more effective if you have a driver and a shooter. In relation to "under power" it's akin to a "rolling stop" while driving and coming to a stop sign. Not much forward movement at all.
As mentioned before.... different LEO's will also have their own opinion or interpretations of what the law says or the intent of it. At the end of the day, the judge will decide what is right....and even then....some judges make bad interpretations of the law and hence the need for the Supreme Court of Canada.
We can all agree to disagree on this and are liable not to change one another's' opinions on it. I use my firearm in a power boat for the purposes of retrieving cripples as I believe the law allows and would fight that in court. When the majority of the members who sit on the Supreme Court of Canada say I am wrong.....I will stop. Those who feel it is breaking the law and choose not to do so.....my hats off to you for sticking to what you believe.
Wow, what a difference a weekend makes.
We've now gone from " It's not illegal", to "it's common practice", or "I'd fight a charge".
Bottom line is that as the reg is laid out, it's illegal. A CO has weighed in on it, and regardless of it being minimized, it's still illegal.
If you tell a new hunter it's ok, you're not being helpful.
Read again BB, it is not illegal and that comes from the head of the enforcement branch. This is not being minimized....how could you say that?
Feel free to contact either of the contacts listed.
Underlying comment here though is 'safety' regardless of reg and I think most would agree.
Actually, CO Justin Cook indicated the following. "[COLOR=#333333]Pursuing a wounded bird and shooting it from a power boat is a different action than using your boat to drive out and pick up a bird. I have no doubt that shooting from a moving boat is sometimes the most effective way to quickly dispatch a cripple, however I don’t believe it falls within the intent of the law and it is also a huge safety issue."Quote:
Originally Posted by krakadawn
So I can say it fairly easily. Bottom line, you may do it....and not actually be charged, but that isn't exactly what's being argued here now is it? If you're stopped by a CO while doing it, and it's added to a list of charges, it's more likely to be used.
Once again, going back, several pages now. Getting away with something, and falling under the letter of the law, are two distinct things. Just because you're driving only 5km over the limit doesn't mean you're legal, but it's not likely that the OPP are going to charge you either. They may use it as a reason to effect a traffic stop however.
I'm just reading from the sidelines here, but that email from enforcement branch did not seem to offer anything about shooting cripples from a powerboat; just that the MBCA does not prohibit possession of a loaded firearm in the powerboat, and that powerboats can be used to retrieve game. Also that hunting from a powerboat is illegal, except where the Act allows.Quote:
Originally Posted by krakadawn
He seems to have just reiterated the sticky point without providing clarity.
And that is the crux of the discussion...it is not illegal. I did not reprint the letter in it's entirety as all govt. responses have certain disclaimers
But...let me tell you if you phone the enforcement specialist he will confirm that it is totally legal to have a loaded gun in the boat while pursuing a crippled bird. He reinforces safety as we all have throughout this thread and in fact suggested good practise would be to have two in the boat with the front person focussed on shooting the bird. He is the Enforcement Specialist.
This is not like doing 105 in a 100km zone....this is legal.
It has been alluded that should we tell newbies at the game to have at it....well I guess that's your call. There are those that need to either get a good dog or stay on shore.....as always, SAFETY first!