Do you need an ultra magnum?

I am not a muzzle loader guy, I want to be at some point though.

I was wondering why all of the magnum loads for the muzzle loaders, I mean, you are still using a 45cal bullet in a 50cal sabot running a bullet with a really poor BC, the velocity sheds so fast that it does not really make sense to me to go with a 200gr load, even 150gr.

Muzzle loaders are 100 yard guns on deer for the most part, even with scopes and magnum loads. I guess you would have less of a rainbow effect but it is still similar to shooting a shotgun slug.

What are your thoughts?

If they came out with a long boat tailed 338 or 30 cal bullet, maybe 180-200gr set into a 50 cal sabot then I could see you holding the velocity and making magnum loads better but a 220gr 45cal bullet is really stubby.

Hmm, maybe I should just start making 50 cal sabots to hold 30 cal bullets :)

Deer or anything else really don't care how fast the projectile is that hits them. They aren't bullet proof! The thing is most .45 cal bullets are designed for velocities below 2000fps. Its a proven fact that big heavy, slow bullets out penetrate ones at magnum velocities. Its just the typical believe that more is better. But its really just compensating for something that is lacking ;)

I would not hesitate to make a 200 yd shot with mine with a good rest and that is with 100 grns of powder. Agreed, the magnum charge is not needed and some of it exits the barrel before full burn.

The magnum black powder substitutes lose efficiency very fast and don't usually result in much more velocity. We have all switched to smokeless Savage 10ML guns and 200 yd shots are a snap.

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Originally Posted by terrym

The magnum black powder substitutes lose efficiency very fast and don't usually result in much more velocity. We have all switched to smokeless Savage 10ML guns and 200 yd shots are a snap.

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So if you are running blackpowder the old long barrel thing is key to get full burn on the powder, but only long enough that you still have burning powder. Meaning that you want the burn to stop as the bullet exits the barrel, not have any additional barrel length to increase friction on the bullet and slow it prematurely.

This is what I was trying to figure out, I see more of you guys using 80-100 grains for hunting then 150grains.

Why the large bore though? If they now have rifles that can up the velocity with blackpowder or as with the Savage have gone to smokeless, why not have a smaller bullet in a sabot? If you can get the 2400 fps advertised then why not go with a smaller diameter jacketed bullet with a longer profile. Maintaining the same weight you would have a lot better BC which would hold the velocity better, buck the wind better and hit with the same authority as a 30-06 loaded with a 220gr bullet.

I know this is not the intended purpose of the smoke poles, the post about the 200gr remington muzzleloader got me thinking.

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Originally Posted by Fox

Muzzle loaders are 100 yard guns on deer for the most part, even with scopes and magnum loads. I guess you would have less of a rainbow effect but it is still similar to shooting a shotgun slug.

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In the recent OOD article Grech says that his personal best with a muzzleloader is 333 yards. That is one hell of a shot.

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Originally Posted by Species8472

In the recent OOD article Grech says that his personal best with a muzzleloader is 333 yards. That is one hell of a shot.

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That is not the norm, that is one hell of a shot.

They list the new magnum as having a drop over 2 feet at 300 yards, with wind drift that is a really iffy shot on game.

333 yards, I really hope he practiced.

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Originally Posted by Fox

So if you are running blackpowder the old long barrel thing is key to get full burn on the powder, but only long enough that you still have burning powder. Meaning that you want the burn to stop as the bullet exits the barrel, not have any additional barrel length to increase friction on the bullet and slow it prematurely.

This is what I was trying to figure out, I see more of you guys using 80-100 grains for hunting then 150grains.

Why the large bore though? If they now have rifles that can up the velocity with blackpowder or as with the Savage have gone to smokeless, why not have a smaller bullet in a sabot? If you can get the 2400 fps advertised then why not go with a smaller diameter jacketed bullet with a longer profile. Maintaining the same weight you would have a lot better BC which would hold the velocity better, buck the wind better and hit with the same authority as a 30-06 loaded with a 220gr bullet.

I know this is not the intended purpose of the smoke poles, the post about the 200gr remington muzzleloader got me thinking.

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I can run a 300 grainer @ 2400 fps in my savage, but it starts to hurt! The problem is with a smaller bullet the thicker the sabot has to be and that affects accuracy.

Fox

First correction to bore deceleration myth is that a bullet in a bore is under constant acceleration until it exits. The rate of acceleration is dependent on the remaining pressure behind it. Even when the powder completes its burn the remaining pressure is the driving force for the bullet acceleration. This also applies to CF rifles.

Muzzle loading has advanced exponentially in the last 14-years and is not limited to BP anymore.
Common bullets designated for ML use is designed for muzzle velocities for 2000fps or less. Their BC also limits useful range because of the velocity loss.
There are many variables in play including sabot specifications when deciding what sabot to use even for velocity applications. Most ML shooters don’t want to invest the time to learn the intricacies and variables actually involved with muzzle loading. They prefer a simple designated load combination and fire away during hunting season.

As for the new Remington Ultimate for me I don’t need it as my 10ML-II gives me everything I need out to 200yds easily.

Ed

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Originally Posted by terrym

The magnum black powder substitutes lose efficiency very fast and don't usually result in much more velocity. We have all switched to smokeless Savage 10ML guns and 200 yd shots are a snap.

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Yikes! Why spend the money on a Savage when you can get a cheap inline (CVA, Traditions), for less?

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Originally Posted by rippin_355

I can run a 300 grainer @ 2400 fps in my savage, but it starts to hurt! The problem is with a smaller bullet the thicker the sabot has to be and that affects accuracy.

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Why would you spend the money on a Savage to get that velocity?

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Originally Posted by ET1

Fox
As for the new Remington Ultimate for me I don’t need it as my 10ML-II gives me everything I need out to 200yds easily.
Ed

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Why wouldn't you want to be lost in a cloud of smoke after shooting that distance using a muzzleloader that only shoots black powder substitutes?