Unknown champions

There were a few threads about pedigree and breeding and dog selection.
I was talking with a buddy who is also a dog guy and I though how many amazing champion capability gun dogs out there that are unknown.
Guys who have real hunting dogs, not that trial dogs are not hunting dogs by any means please don't get me wrong, but dogs that just hunt and only know how to hunt. No planted birds no artificial interference, not being over commanded and may not have the ideal style but game in the bag, and just hunt and hunt hard.
II have often seen pups for sale on Kijiji and have wondered what if its just a couple of guys with really great dogs that bread them together.
My buddy was talking to a guy out of Windsor who was selling GWP on Kijiji and asked them about there hunting experience, he said they hunted amazing, and as for versatile they hunted everything, ducks,pheasant,rabbit,grouse,woodcock,geese and hard too. Just a couple Euro guys with great dogs breeding them together, and they were reasonably priced too. No mark up price just because of a title.
Now I'm am not promoting puppy mill backyard breeding by any means.
Has anyone purchased a dog like this who surprisingly turned out to be an amazing hunter?

Never a surprise if you know what your looking for.
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/...ps8ylowzop.jpg
She may not win a ribbon from the pros but for not quite 2 yet can't ask for more. $400
Her predecessor much of the same
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/...pspmmx83bf.jpg

"Life is too short to hunt with an ugly dog".. Sorry, but when I take the time to get a dog to hunt , I want a dog that pedigree has been proven to those other than the owner and his close friends. I will have this dog for up to 15 years, it is to be healthy, has the desire to hunt, and is trainable. Yes , it may have cost me more from the outset, but in the long term investment I am money and enjoyment ahead. I do not want to take a gamble on a dog from who knows where being what Joe Smock and his buddy said was a great dog.
I may have a higher level of expectations from my dogs than most and do not want to waste my talents training a dog that just does not have the potential...

Dick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BDH

"Life is too short to hunt with an ugly dog".. Sorry, but when I take the time to get a dog to hunt , I want a dog that pedigree has been proven to those other than the owner and his close friends. I will have this dog for up to 15 years, it is to be healthy, has the desire to hunt, and is trainable. Yes , it may have cost me more from the outset, but in the long term investment I am money and enjoyment ahead. I do not want to take a gamble on a dog from who knows where being what Joe Smock and his buddy said was a great dog.
I may have a higher level of expectations from my dogs than most and do not want to waste my talents training a dog that just does not have the potential...

Dick

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Good post Dick, ya got me onside with that.
The immediate problems with 2 hunters breeding their dogs is certainly the health clearances unless they've done some homework and ensured for the future of others that their dogs are sound and healthy,

Some guy may tell me how great ole Joe is but if I see a title on ole Joe then I know he has distinguished himself in a given field. I have some facts to assist me in my decision.

If you're suggesting that there are dogs out there that can compare in a real sense to Field Champions then I really disagree. People need to see how talented and capable these dogs really are. You need to see how capable they are especially with the extremes(in retrieving) that they are capable of.

Field trial dogs that are exposed to regular hunting make dogs that most people cannot even imagine.

Good topic to think about though, Big Gunner.

I would treat it like conformation/show in the sense that just because a quality dog doesn't have a Ch. title doesn't mean it isn't worthy of being bred or that it doesn't have anything valuable to contribute to the gene pool. There are tons of gems out there without a stupid Ch. title that do hold fabulous conformation and are properly put together to the breed standard yet never step foot in the ring. Just because the owner didn't show it doesn't mean it is lesser quality. For me if the breeder, and trusted outside sources (other breeders, fanciers and those in the know of the breed standard) confirm my dog is conformationally sound - then that to me is enough to warrant breeding so long as health tests are cleared and temeperment is solid, and huntability is bang on.

So same goes for this scenario. If the dogs in question are correct in conformation, sound temperment, trainable and can hunt and produce and pass all health tests - what is so bad? If you don't take the breeders word and want to see the dogs in action yourself then go for it. See how trainable, obedient, and natural the dogs are in the field.
Just because the dogs did not come from field trial lines doesn't make them lesser quality.

Maplevizsla, I agree with you re your comments about a 'stupid CH' but using that analogy to compare dogs to dogs that have FTCH titles is a stretch.

Just because an owner did not compete cannot be used as an excuse that it is of lesser quality as you say but it is undeniable if the dog is field titled. Numerous competitions and high standards have attested to that.

Dogs that don't come from field trial lines are of less quality. They may be exceptional but most likely are missing in the traits that field trailers have bred for, drive, sagacity, intelligence, thinking, memory, stamina etc

I like your idea of seeing the parents in action...too bad more folks didn't do that.

"Has anyone purchased a dog like this who surprisingly turned out to be an amazing hunter?"
A simillar type of Question might be, has any ever won the lottery? Yes, but the chances of it happening to you and me are slim. The difference between Hunters breeding and someone who regularly competes or judges or is involved in field trials , is the amount of dogs and dog work that they are exposed too. A Hunter over 25 yrs will have a chance to know 2 or 3 dogs really well. A "Trialer" over the same period will know 5 times that many dogs and will have been exposed to hundreds possibly thousands of dogs. They will have seen the good and bad, which studs have produced, what the results have come from crosssing certains lines, which Breeders consistantly produce quality. One of my mentors once told me don't breed till you know all the hounds in the 3 generation pedigree.

However, I do feel the are Trials not perfect. The Trials can become self fulfilling. The example that comes to mind is Brace Beagling. The Judges , Competitors, and the sport as a whole developed themsevles a sport that created champions and grand champions for over fifty years. Yes they had great sport and competitions , but with total disregard for Hunters expectations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Gunner

There were a few threads about pedigree and breeding and dog selection.<br>
I was talking with a buddy who is also a dog guy and I though how many amazing champion capability gun dogs out there that are unknown.<br>
Guys who have real hunting dogs, not that trial dogs are not hunting dogs by any means please don't get me wrong, but dogs that just hunt and only know how to hunt. No planted birds no artificial interference, not being over commanded and may not have the ideal style but game in the bag, and just hunt and hunt hard. <br>
II have often seen pups for sale on Kijiji and have wondered what if its just a couple of guys with really great dogs that bread them together.<br>
My buddy was talking to a guy out of Windsor who was selling GWP on Kijiji and asked them about there hunting experience, he said they hunted amazing, and as for versatile they hunted everything, ducks,pheasant,rabbit,grouse,woodcock,geese and hard too. Just a couple Euro guys with great dogs breeding them together, and they were reasonably priced too. No mark up price just because of a title.
Now I'm am not promoting puppy mill backyard breeding by any means.
Has anyone purchased a dog like this who surprisingly turned out to be an amazing hunter?

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"Has anyone purchased a dog like this who surprisingly turned out to be an amazing hunter? " quote

No.
I suppose someone could get lucky and hit on a great hunting dog on Kijii. Not a crap shoot I would want to take.

Your average weekend warrior or regular joe hunter doesn't want/need a flashy field trial high caliber dog. They want a dog that can hunt, just plain old hunt. Get the job done. Not a dog that can compete. Not a dog that can perform fancy flashy field trial aspects. Obviously some folks appreciate and want that, bet you more don't need that though.
Including myself. While my dog does have field trial champs in his bloodline and dogs who have acheived master hunt titles I don't want or need that in a hunting companion for my little bush in Ontario. I just need him to have the attributes of a great hunting companion. Couldn't care less about his ancestors winning this derby or that cup because I don't need him to do that. Sure is nice to have and know that his ancestors were fabulous field-trialers, but can my current dog hunt and can his parents and at least his grandparents? If they didn't field trial does not make his parents, grandparents or himself lesser quality- sorry but it doesn't. Not every owner of a breeding dog wants to or can commit to the time, dedication, trainig, travel and money to compete and put trial titles on thier dog.
My dog serves my purpose and I bet those family hunting companions do to.
I look at some of the Vizsla folk who are all NAVHDA - not trialing in the wide open prairie or desert or stakes in Michigan or Pennsylvania....these dogs can frikkin hunt. They have produced offspring that can hunt. Have won mulitple high achievements in navdha but in the end again can hunt. They are most definitely not lesser quality.

Field trials/lines are not the be all end all. What I am trying to say I guess is that in my breed's circle there are amazing dogs that can hunt and produce hunting dogs and are great contributors to the breed without a Ch. title - the title is just a small snapshot of 'that/those moments under those circumstances'....just like there are amazing dogs that are hunting machines that produce great hunting offspring without a FTCh. Title or having ever been trialed.

What I am leery of is kijiji.....or unethical breeding. Gotta do your homework and checks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maplevizsla

Your average weekend warrior or regular joe hunter doesn't want/need a flashy field trial high caliber dog. They want a dog that can hunt, just plain old hunt. Get the job done. Not a dog that can compete. Not a dog that can perform fancy flashy field trial aspects. Obviously some folks appreciate and want that, bet you more don't need that though.
Including myself. While my dog does have field trial champs in his bloodline and dogs who have acheived master hunt titles I don't want or need that in a hunting companion for my little bush in Ontario. I just need him to have the attributes of a great hunting companion. Couldn't care less about his ancestors winning this derby or that cup because I don't need him to do that. Sure is nice to have and know that his ancestors were fabulous field-trialers, but can my current dog hunt and can his parents and at least his grandparents? If they didn't field trial does not make his parents, grandparents or himself lesser quality- sorry but it doesn't. Not every owner of a breeding dog wants to or can commit to the time, dedication, trainig, travel and money to compete and put trial titles on thier dog.
My dog serves my purpose and I bet those family hunting companions do to.
I look at some of the Vizsla folk who are all NAVHDA - not trialing in the wide open prairie or desert or stakes in Michigan or Pennsylvania....these dogs can frikkin hunt. They have produced offspring that can hunt. Have won mulitple high achievements in navdha but in the end again can hunt. They are most definitely not lesser quality.

Field trials/lines are not the be all end all. What I am trying to say I guess is that in my breed's circle there are amazing dogs that can hunt and produce hunting dogs and are great contributors to the breed without a Ch. title - the title is just a small snapshot of 'that/those moments under those circumstances'....just like there are amazing dogs that are hunting machines that produce great hunting offspring without a FTCh. Title or having ever been trialed.

What I am leery of is kijiji.....or unethical breeding. Gotta do your homework and checks.

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Well said.