Ammunition and the return of the condors

“Endangered California condors land in Sequoia National Park for 1st time in 50 years.”

The condors appear to be on the come back. Apparently the view on their decline was they were savaging on the remains of animals killed by hunters and it was fragments of lead scatter through the remains that was poisoning them. What caught my attention was the idea of ‘lead fragment.’ I had a cousin who complain of this problem when using nylon tipped bullets, when hunting deer. I know when shooting deer with cast bullets there is no discernible fragmentation to the bullet. It remains intact passing straight through the animal. So I’m wondering if the real culprit isn’t jacketed ammunition. I’ve read other article where they’ve made suggestions of replacing the lead cores with non-toxic material. Just tossing this in to get some views on the matter.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
_- Gun Nut

Qui bono...? Who benefits?

It would be interesting to see the source of the info before making conclusions.If all this mentioned is possible.......yes........but!

We have seen before ,claiming obesity is due of the fat in the food-now with sugar replacing the fat,the obesity is thru the roof.
We have seen margarine heralded as savior-now it slowly becomes public enemy.

Just to name few.

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Originally Posted by gbk

Qui bono...? Who benefits?

It would be interesting to see the source of the info before making conclusions.If all this mentioned is possible.......yes........but!

We have seen before ,claiming obesity is due of the fat in the food-now with sugar replacing the fat,the obesity is thru the roof.
We have seen margarine heralded as savior-now it slowly becomes public enemy.

Just to name few.

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The initial article about the Condor returning to the park was on MSN where they mention lead poisoning and how they came by the idea. Then I found something on the site below. When you consider the level of lead in the environment, I always get wonder how hunters get fingered for putting it there, considering the other source of lead that are out there ( for example lead from smoking, beer and wine drinking - a result of lead base poisons poured on to crops for year for pest control)

Here is the site I referenced : Lead bullets poison California's wild condors - Futurity
www.futurity.org

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. you grow old because you stop hunting.
-Gun Nut

I wonder if it's from small game like ground squirrels and coyotes where hunters might shoot a bunch and leave them to be scavenged.

Find it hard to believe that these condors are getting lead poisoning from big game like deer/bear where a hunter would be packing out the animal, But I guess it possible.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

The initial article about the Condor returning to the park was on MSN where they mention lead poisoning and how they came by the idea. Then I found something on the site below. When you consider the level of lead in the environment, I always get wonder how hunters get fingered for putting it there, considering the other source of lead that are out there ( for example lead from smoking, beer and wine drinking - a result of lead base poisons poured on to crops for year for pest control)

Here is the site I referenced : Lead bullets poison California's wild condors - Futurity
www.futurity.org

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. you grow old because you stop hunting.
-Gun Nut

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Hi GunNut-i was not challenging You..........just saying,sometimes the source tells it all

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Originally Posted by SongDog

I wonder if it's from small game like ground squirrels and coyotes where hunters might shoot a bunch and leave them to be scavenged.

Find it hard to believe that these condors are getting lead poisoning from big game like deer/bear where a hunter would be packing out the animal, But I guess it possible.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

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also no hawks, coyotes, or other animals feeding on the gut pile or dead ground squirrels are suffering from lead poisoning.

Just the Condors.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

also no hawks, coyotes, or other animals feeding on the gut pile or dead ground squirrels are suffering from lead poisoning.

Just the Condors.

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It does seem strange that other scavengers aren’t troubled, so it is probably the way the bird digestive system works. Birds, of course, lack teeth so they rely on grit (small pebbles) which they swallow which end up in their gizzards and along with the muscle structure work to grind up their intake of food along with the digestive acids and gizzard flora. I suspect that lead fragments get added to the grit and remain in the gizzard over a extended period of time until it eventual gets dissolved away by the digest juices, and absorbed into the blood stream, in a bit by bit fashion. Meanwhile in the other scavengers with teeth lead passes more readily through their digestive system, with all the other food material and there is very little absorption of the lead.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

It does seem strange that other scavengers aren’t troubled, so it is probably the way the bird digestive system works. Birds, of course, lack teeth so they rely on grit (small pebbles) which they swallow which end up in their gizzards and along with the muscle structure work to grind up their intake of food along with the digestive acids and gizzard flora. I suspect that lead fragments get added to the grit and remain in the gizzard over a extended period of time until it eventual gets dissolved away by the digest juices, and absorbed into the blood stream, in a bit by bit fashion. Meanwhile in the other scavengers with teeth lead passes more readily through their digestive system, with all the other food material and there is very little absorption of the lead.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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You are right on part of your understanding of birds digestive system and how it works. Well birds do use stones or grit to grand their food the food and grit passes thru their system as one mass. So when a bird eats a meal it also ingests grit and water( how much differ between birds) the grit and water allow the Gizzard to grind the food into a paste. The Paste ( made up of food, Grit and water ) is then passed into the stomach and the rest of the digestive system. In the end ( yup pun) the waste is passed out of the Anus, and is made of waste, water and the grit the bird ate with the meal. Although there could be trace amounts of lead left in the digestive system after the meal, ever meal after that one would move the lead grit out of the birds system.

You can think of the paste as you making cement. You accidentally throw a shovel or two of red( lead contamination ) dirt into the mixer. There is now some red in your cement that you pour, but as you mix and pour more cement the red will disappear.

They would have to be ingesting lead with just about every meal.

Now there was also a lot of unregulated mining of Zinc and Silver/Galena ( Galena a lead ore often containing significant amounts of silver) which produce lead as a by-product as well as lead mining it's self, in California before the EPA regulations of the 70's. There are waste water ponds that have been abandoned for years and once dry allow lead dust to be blown around.

Well Condors do have very good senses of smell, they are not put off by smells that other animals would avoid. Smells like the scent of a waste water pond.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

You are right on part of your understanding of birds digestive system and how it works. Well birds do use stones or grit to grand their food the food and grit passes thru their system as one mass. So when a bird eats a meal it also ingests grit and water( how much differ between birds) the grit and water allow the Gizzard to grind the food into a paste. The Paste ( made up of food, Grit and water ) is then passed into the stomach and the rest of the digestive system. In the end ( yup pun) the waste is passed out of the Anus, and is made of waste, water and the grit the bird ate with the meal. Although there could be trace amounts of lead left in the digestive system after the meal, ever meal after that one would move the lead grit out of the birds system.

You can think of the paste as you making cement. You accidentally throw a shovel or two of red( lead contamination ) dirt into the mixer. There is now some red in your cement that you pour, but as you mix and pour more cement the red will disappear.

They would have to be ingesting lead with just about every meal.

Now there was also a lot of unregulated mining of Zinc and Silver/Galena ( Galena a lead ore often containing significant amounts of silver) which produce lead as a by-product as well as lead mining it's self, in California before the EPA regulations of the 70's. There are waste water ponds that have been abandoned for years and once dry allow lead dust to be blown around.

Well Condors do have very good senses of smell, they are not put off by smells that other animals would avoid. Smells like the scent of a waste water pond.

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"They would have to be ingesting lead with just about every meal."

Not necessarily, I came across an article that stated:
"insoluble grit will remain in the gizzard for months to years, very little is needed, if any at all."
In general the answer to the question: How does the grit pass through a bird?
"The grit, after ingestion, travels down into the gizzard where it will stay for quite a while until it is worn down sufficiently to pass through the bird without causing harm."
The digestive stem of birds does not work as efficiently as does that of mammals. For that reason fragments of bullets remain in their gizzards for a quite a period of time, that is why when they started examining the gizzards of waterfowl they kept finding lead sinkers and bird shot. Amongst the mammals, I believe the bear hold the best record for a speedy digestive system, food waste comes out of them about as fast as they consume the food, for the most part poorly digested

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting?
-Gun Nut

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

"They would have to be ingesting lead with just about every meal."

Not necessarily, I came across an article that stated:
"insoluble grit will remain in the gizzard for months to years, very little is needed, if any at all."
In general the answer to the question: How does the grit pass through a bird?
"The grit, after ingestion, travels down into the gizzard where it will stay for quite a while until it is worn down sufficiently to pass through the bird without causing harm."
The digestive stem of birds does not work as efficiently as does that of mammals. For that reason fragments of bullets remain in their gizzards for a quite a period of time, that is why when they started examining the gizzards of waterfowl they kept finding lead sinkers and bird shot. Amongst the mammals, I believe the bear hold the best record for a speedy digestive system, food waste comes out of them about as fast as they consume the food, for the most part poorly digested

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting?
-Gun Nut

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Yes larger pieces could stay in the system longer, but a birds gizzard is not like a Tumbler in a factory for example.

The Ball bearings in a tumbler are made to be too large to exit the holes.

Birds eat grit that is small enough to easily pass thru their system with no problems.