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Muzzloader coming up.
when do you believe we should be heading into the second rut? I’ve been getting a bit more movement closer to day light again on camera bucks and doe. I’m thinking tail end of next week should see some last minute rut action.
thoughts? Personal experiences?
I’ve seen bucks opening up scrapes the second week of December.
They are heading into post rut here...they peaked last week. However with the snow down, hunting should be better than it was at the beginning of the month. At least I still have Bucks on my trail camera...looking forward to next week, which is technically the beginning of the 2nd Rut.
Biggest buck I ever saw was December 8th, 2010. Came out grunting and hot on the trail of 2 does that just came through. I never got a shot at him unfortunately.
Next week should be a really good time to catch some rutting activity.
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im excited. Right now im getting them just after dark. had only a 2 pics in day light last week. been pretty nocturnal up to now since gun week.
Seen 2 nice bucks out in the open this week, one following a doe and the other wandering the fence line on two seperate occasions who did not seem concerned about us watching him he seemed to have does on the brain.
Saw a 4 point buck, chasing a small doe across some front lawns on our street this morning, and neighborhood watch was all over it, same as coyote sightings,... lol.. for sure a rut is on.
And everybody says you never post about hunting! Get any pics?Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
Lots of daylight. Movement this week. Second rut should kick in the first week of December on southern Ontario
Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchhunter
I’ll be up Thursday till Saturday night for muzzloader...hoping for some daylight movement. Been quiet this week.
The science behind it says there is a second rut and even a third in January but obviously the percent of breedable does goes down drastically after the initial rut. Exactly 1 month after the first rut is when the second rut would on average be peaking. So if around Nov 12th is the peak of the first rut, second rut will be around Dec 12th statistically.
Normally 28 days after the first rut is when doe will come into estrus again if she didn't get bred the first time around...
do you guys think there is a pre rut for the 2nd rut? as in does it follow the same patterns as the first?
im getting folks telling me how bucks are chasing.
ive never done just ML hunt before for bucks until this year. gunna be fun!
IMO the so-called second rut is overstated, over simplified, and overhyped. Very few does make it past their first estrus without being successfully impregnated. Secondly, there is a common belief that does will re-cycle every 28 days. The interval between cycles varies between individual does. It could be 28 days, it could be less, it could be more. Much of it depends on the age and health of the doe.Quote:
Originally Posted by marky.mark
Late season breeding does in fact occur but it doesn’t involve a large part of the deer population. In some cases, well-fed doe fawns will mature and will successfully breed. The breeding period can best be illustrated as a bell curve rather than a series of peaks every 28 days. As long as the curve is above the baseline, breeding will be occurring.
As the season wears on, older bucks that over-exerted themselves will drop out of the rut. Some of these bucks will drop their antlers in early December due to a lack of testosterone. There is also some research that suggests that it is primarily younger does that are bred later in the fall and that these younger does are more comfortable around younger bucks. These does that cycle later in the season can attract a lot of attention as demand exceeds supply,
Anyway, the second rut has been researched and debunked as a significant event. It’s right up there with “does urinate in scrapes to attract bucks”, or “all of the breeding is done by the older bucks”.
Not of that particular deer, I have sooo many on my phone and computer, I could share. But I am old ,and really computer illiterate. I would need my son to help me post them off my device. New years resolution?.Quote:
Originally Posted by Species8472
All good info except I do not agree the second rut isnt significant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
Who debunked it as not a significant event? Do you have any information on what research indicated this?
If a small percentage, and from what Ive read 10% of does are going into heat in December its certainty going to affect some buck behaviour. Especially the dominant breeding buck of the square mile it controls. Even though most lesser bucks wont be searching, the biggest buck of the area will be, he knows there are receptive does and keeps cruising for them.
The chance to get the biggest buck of the square mile continuing to follow a seeking/breeding pattern is a significant piece of information especially for trophy hunting.
Ken Nordberg's Whitetail Hunting Almanac:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...381b87434e.jpg
I think Ken's accredited with debunking those myths that Sam mentioned.
I also think there's some validity though to the bell curve that Sam describes.
Just from my own experience, I've collected doe urine with blood during every week in December. I know this for sure because I used to travel through bedding areas specifically just to collect it and some years I would have to wait later into December for snow in order to be able to get it. I've also seen it in early January shed hunting.
It’s going to take a while for me to find references to the research. What I’ve learned is that breeding mostly occurs during mid-November however some does will breed in October and others later in the fall. Late breeding usually involves does that were not impregnated earlier (very few in normal situations), late-born yearling does, and a few fawns that make weight (>85 pounds). The few fawns that do breed usually don’t until December onward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Wrastler
The 28-day cycle is not entirely correct. It’s more of a range e.g. about 23-30 days.
The number of does that come into heat in late November/December are few (compared to the main breeding window in mid-November) that it can’t scientifically be called a second rut. That’s not to say that you can’t or won’t see crazy bucks later in the fall. On the contrary, because there aren’t many does in heat at that time of the year, several bucks may congregate around the one or two that are,
Buck dominance is always in a state of flux and isn’t dependant on antler size. Attitude has a lot to do with it. A dominant buck can lose its status later in the fall if it loses a lot of body weight during the fall. For that reason, I think subordinate bucks get a bit more beeeding action in the later part of the season.
I would love to see breeding in October if you can show it. I've looked forever and cant find it and most deer biologists that I've studied say Novembers the start.
The breeding of does in October would put the gestation period for fawn birth in April. That would result in extremely low birthrate due to poor weather condition.
It’s a slow ramp up towards the peak breeding that happens in mid-November and tapers off later in the month. The farther you go before or after peak breeding, the fewer does involved. I’m not saying that early breeding is significant but it happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
I had never heard of Ken Nordberg until a couple of weeks ago and am just starting to review some of his material. Interestingly, I discovered that he isn’t a biologist but a dentist with a passion for deer and deer hunting. Although he claims to have conducted research, I don’t think that any of his work has been peer-reviewed or published in any scientific journals. I’m not saying this to discredit him, but am only pointing out that his findings may only be opinions.Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ken Nordberg's Whitetail Hunting Almanac:
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Some of the big gurus of scientific research on deer and deer behaviour include Larry Marchington, James Kroll, Karl Miller, Aaron Moen, Valerius Geist, Harry Jacobson, Mickey Hellickson, and John Ozoga, just to name a few.
James Kroll writes for North American Whitetail magazine and John Ozoga writes for Deer and Deer Hunting magazine. Both write excellent articles and often cite the work carried out by the others. Well worth the read IMO.
If we could verify an April birth that would confirm October breeding but I dont think the evidence exists.
There's evidence of July births though, which can confirm January breeding.
I currently have a doe and two doe fawns pretty active on a property I hunt, that's out of 7 does total that visit. Both fawns are quite big. I'm eagerly waiting and monitoring lol.
I have 4 different year class bucks that are regular visitors as well. They disappeared for a week and just showed back up Thursday night. Using the cell cam this year has made it a lot more interactive for scouting. They're great, it's been a lot of fun using it.
Sam, you reference a lot of great deer guru's. My favorite is deer and deer hunting. Was my first magazine subscription in my teens. Arguably the best publication magazine for deer hunters.
I run spypoints and tactacam reveals all year. The amount of knowledge I’ve gathered from those has been incredible. How different areas of the bush come alive at different times of the year. This week has been a quieter for me on cam. I just loaded up on apples one more time for this weeks muzzloader. Hopefully will bring them out in shooting times. Been nocturnal for a bit in my area.
Yeah they're pretty awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by marky.mark
I think back when I used to run a pocket full of trail timers, you'd tie a piece of string across the trail attached to a small clock to let me know what time any tall critter went by. Use to think that was pretty sophisticated . Lol
Hahaha, I remember those! I used to use them at my bear bait to see what time the first one was showing up. Never worked worth a damn.Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
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Pretty high tech stuff back in the day lol. I wonder if they ever helped anyone get a deer? Then came trail cameras that used film, we’ve come a long way,Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
Lol, I do recall scrapping the ground of debris under the strings to help identify tracks but no I have no memory of whether they ever directly helped me to get one.
Oh yeah the camera films, almost forgot about that evolution.lol
My first trail Cam....worth every penny just for the anticipation alone. Set it up and went back in 5 days, saw the film was full and then took it into the Photo shop, paid the premium to get it developed for the next day. The 24 hrs of anticipation was almost to much, picked them up when it opened, tore open the envelop in the store and with shaky hands I flipped thru 32 pics of a weed blowing in front of the camera. HaHa...
Imagine...now the pics are sent to your phone in real time...we've come a long way baby HaHa,
Im familiar with most the ones you posted particularly Ozoga, Ken has more schooling then just his dentistry I forget what specifically but I believe hes formally trained as an animal researcher. While his methodology can be slightly different then some of the mainstream for some aspects, I find value in comparing different researchers information. Nobody will ever agree and its always subject to change but the continual pursuit for more and better research is what matters. Peer reviewed and empirical research is kind of difficult on mostly observational studies which is what I believe Ken focused more on with his wife. Its hard for peers to agree on observations they may not have dircet experience with whereas biological data like blood samples and measured hormone levels, birth weight of fawns etc would be easier to agree on in absence of similar observations opportunity. Each researcher has something to bring to the table, Ken has a unique style and seems to have captured the bigger picture that ties everything together in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
Thanks for naming some of the others I have not heard of, always looking for different reasearch to compare and scrutinize lol.
Oh boy I totally get the anticipation of what’s on the film and then the big let down of not seeing anything of substance. Reminds me of the first time I tried using deer lure, I expected to be trampled by deer and then not seeing anything. Worst $5 I ever spent lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
OP-all in all-the season is open,harvesting deer is only possible in the bush.Whoever has a time ,unused tag-just go for it.
Being out is priceless,harvesting deer along the way is a big bonus,do not let theory of right or wrong answers distract You from going at it.
Remember-deer hunt is like soccer:there are certain statistics(not know the exacts,just making it up,to demonstarte)
If you want to score 1 x-you need to create 2 very dangerous shoots-for 2 shoots you need 4 serious attacks-for 4 attacks you have to get over to the opponents side 8 x with the ball-to get over 8 x ,you have to take the ball away from them 16 x........something like this.
Many hunters work hard at scoring,and not taking away from anyone's success,but:
Some hunters get lucky,some hunters use "hunting aids"(baiting comes to my mind)some hunters score several deer due of deer drive etc,so this is NOT a carwed in stone statistics.
However it gets the chances of scoring out there "palatable".
Is it there a second rut scientifically proven ? would be good to know and agree on it ! yes , but if it is (even if it is non proven)the "timing"is about right for it-plus You will loose nothing if you assume there is one,so hunt as there is one,if that is what You want to do...........You can loose absolutely nothing.
Good hunting.
ps-i think there was,and always will be a second rut(and a third as well )the only difference is the magnitude of it,but hey-for the BIG one,there is only 11 more months to go
I think the most compelling evidence for a November start to breeding, with a continuation into December and a fizzle out in January is the deer vehicle collision data from the State of Wisconsin.
They collected data on specifics like bucks hit, does, pregnant does, fawns, yearlings, with dates, etc.
Some of the studies performed on the data illustrate collisions with fawns don't start until May.
I think Ken used some of that data during his research to show other things like pregnant does hit in July to confirm January breeding.
I've liked this theory the best.
I think it best explains the huge ramp up of buck scent marking behavior during the last week of October and those first few days of November, anticipating that first receptive doe.
It would also explain the sharp drop in scrape refreshing as their time is switched into breeding mode.
I remember when I first looked at that data and that point of view, it was a bit of a punch in the gut to be honest. It shook up my whole thought process. To the better in the end I think.