She wants your savings

Good luck with that!
A lot of people have enough common sense to save for a rainy day. It is called financial planning. It allows a person to enjoy a comfortable retirement with a budget staggered over many years. The lump sums they are talking about is just that. They want us to spend to the last dime to get them out of a financial mess they created?
Then what? The socialist government will take care of us?

“unleashing these savings will be a key element of the government’s recovery plan.”

“If it turns out that as things re-open and consumers are still reluctant, then it may make sense for policy to shift.”

The economy was humming along just fine before all the lockdowns. It just did not fit right with the "Great Reset" plan.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/ottawa-e...unts-1.1531766

Just another joke of a solution

Then what happens to the income it generates? I know some that make more than many alone from interest. And that money won't be just handed off the government lol.

Maybe a few others will hand over their money for a good cause .


Or maybe the money people do have will better the economy later . People will loose but others are there to replace them. It's not fair but that is how it works . Businesses fail all the time pre pandemic and others move in .

What kind of interest rates are they talking about lol. Or do they just want to spend everything. It won't work they are just filled with more pipe dreams.

Unless it makes more than a 100k a year I know some who will not hand over their savings lol.

Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

Rather comical, people keep savings for a rainy day.... well it's sure pouring now. I'm Glad I've been fortunate enough to save what I have because there's plenty who couldn't.

Businesses will recover or be replaced. That's just how it will be.

I do like the quote, (from the article)

"Just distribute the vaccine and get out of the way,” said Tal. “There is enough motivation to spend, no need for help.”

I believe that's somewhat true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by impact

Good luck with that!
A lot of people have enough common sense to save for a rainy day. It is called financial planning. It allows a person to enjoy a comfortable retirement with a budget staggered over many years. The lump sums they are talking about is just that. They want us to spend to the last dime to get them out of a financial mess they created?
Then what? The socialist government will take care of us?

“unleashing these savings will be a key element of the government’s recovery plan.”

“If it turns out that as things re-open and consumers are still reluctant, then it may make sense for policy to shift.”

The economy was humming along just fine before all the lockdowns. It just did not fit right with the "Great Reset" plan.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/ottawa-e...unts-1.1531766

---

There is a lot of money in saving's but its there for a good reason, baby boomers got some inheritance money and they also got badly burned in the 2009 melt down. So much so that they are afraid to invest in the stock marker or equities. Mutual funds have fallen out of favor because of the fee's charged.
So there is a ton of money sitting in plain saving's accounts or GIC's which are making now less than 1/2%.
But the bank is using this money right now to play in the stock market and doing very nicely. I don't think many retirees are willingly going on a spending spree, why would they with all bills increasing monthly and property taxes.
If they can't get the money out there working they will go to the next source of income ,taxing your principle residence.

Basically to me the increase in value of homes right now is what is keeping everything afloat right now if the housing boom goes south we are all in big trouble.

If the Minister of Finance wants to free up money people have saved or as she calls it "pre-loaded stimulus" a good suggestion would be a 12 month GST holiday for Canadian-owned retailers, restaurants and tourist operators.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilroy

Basically to me the increase in value of homes right now is what is keeping everything afloat right now if the housing boom goes south we are all in big trouble.

---

I agree, because this is what drives construction in every sector. If construction dies, there's nobody significant enough to draw the money down from wealthy investors both foreign and domestic. Maybe I'm wrong?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Badenoch

If the Minister of Finance wants to free up money people have saved or as she calls it "pre-loaded stimulus" a good suggestion would be a 12 month GST holiday for Canadian-owned retailers, restaurants and tourist operators.

---

So only take from the businesses that are struggling and only give them a GST holiday?

What about all the other's? No not everyone is wealthy but many are . Many live pay to pay and have little money to go around the whole idea is blown smoke .


There would need to be an incentive for all who gave and without a Proffitt it won't happen.

Ps you don't borrow from Peter to pay Paul just digs a deeper pit.

Just another fantasy of the libtards

Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

She didn’t actually say all that. And did no one notice two highly respected economist agreed with her????

And the fact is, people especially the well off, have been saving tons since this all started. They aren’t buying expensive toys, they aren’t taking expensive vacations, the aren’t dining out. Others are putting off spending, “is this the year we really want to X”

While the middle class drowns, small businesses close, others are blowing through their meagre savings etc etc.

What she is referring to is the fact that if people don’t go out and spend, the economy will sputter. Gee how hard is that to figure out? And the “recovery” will take far longer.

She point blank spoke about the tourism and hospitality sectors that have paid prices while many of “you” coast through this with secure jobs. “How can we get people with savings to spend it in those sectors.”

Lol people have no appreciation for the reality the majority (aka 60-70% of the population) are in.

nor I’m guessing that a gross income of about 80k puts a person in the top 10% club.

From 2018. I can just imagine what 2020 will look like.
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/dail...90327b-eng.htm

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

She didn’t actually say all that. And did no one notice two highly respected economist agreed with her????

And the fact is, people especially the well off, have been saving tons since this all started. They aren’t buying expensive toys, they aren’t taking expensive vacations, the aren’t dining out. Others are putting off spending, “is this the year we really want to X”

While the middle class drowns, small businesses close, others are blowing through their meagre savings etc etc.

What she is referring to is the fact that if people don’t go out and spend, the economy will sputter. Gee how hard is that to figure out? And the “recovery” will take far longer.

She point blank spoke about the tourism and hospitality sectors that have paid prices while many of “you” coast through this with secure jobs. “How can we get people with savings to spend it in those sectors.”

Lol people have no appreciation for the reality the majority (aka 60-70% of the population) are in.

nor I’m guessing that a gross income of about 80k puts a person in the top 10% club.

From 2018. I can just imagine what 2020 will look like.
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/dail...90327b-eng.htm

---

I've saved since this started. Increased my business a little and personal expenses are down 25% but I'll spend that money when I'm damn good and ready not because some Minister of Finance says that I should.

So, everyone is bailing out and we are not supposed to be concerned?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...etails-deficit

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

She didn’t actually say all that. And did no one notice two highly respected economist agreed with her????

And the fact is, people especially the well off, have been saving tons since this all started. They aren’t buying expensive toys, they aren’t taking expensive vacations, the aren’t dining out. Others are putting off spending, “is this the year we really want to X”

While the middle class drowns, small businesses close, others are blowing through their meagre savings etc etc.

What she is referring to is the fact that if people don’t go out and spend, the economy will sputter. Gee how hard is that to figure out? And the “recovery” will take far longer.

She point blank spoke about the tourism and hospitality sectors that have paid prices while many of “you” coast through this with secure jobs. “How can we get people with savings to spend it in those sectors.”

Lol people have no appreciation for the reality the majority (aka 60-70% of the population) are in.

nor I’m guessing that a gross income of about 80k puts a person in the top 10% club.

From 2018. I can just imagine what 2020 will look like.
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/dail...90327b-eng.htm

---

But consumer spending is up it dipped at the beginning but once cerb hit it started to get back to normal spending.

I don't understand why when we are in the middle of pandemic. I sure as heck have no extra cash and spending less lol.

It will come back and bite many . People think 2008 was bad lol.

https://thoughtleadership.rbc.com/co...nding-tracker/

Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by impact

So, everyone is bailing out and we are not supposed to be concerned?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...etails-deficit

---

Oh it's going to be a mess.

The government thinks it can do whatever it wants. Take advantage of it all it's only run by corruption and greed.

People think the government rules the people but the truth is the people do whatever they want to . It's our choice but people have no voice and just go with the flow thinking it will better them .

But it's all just a big game for power isn't it? A big political game [emoji1787] [emoji23]



Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

Of course the government what us to spend money...they get the tax off every $ spent...that's their income, they've run the well dry and need more.
They've already tax it once before we got it in the bank, now they want us to spend it so they can get tax it again. HaHa...

Remember back in the aftermath of 911...when people wouldn't get back on airplanes and the economy was tanking. After 6 weeks they did the same thing, asked everyone to start taking holidays again....for the economy. And they were not wrong, there are a lot of places that exist only because of the tourist industry. That was after only 6 weeks, this Covid will screw up, especially foreign, tourism for many years.

Anyone booking a cruise ? Trapped on a ship with 4K people going to foreign ports HaHa...


case in point of impact:

Quote:

---

In a typical year, roughly 500,000 Canadians -- many of them from Quebec -- spend the winter in Florida, said Evan Rachkovsky, a spokesman for the Canadian Snowbird Association. Many gravitate to Hollywood, and have done since the 1920s, when labourers from Canada helped founder Joseph Young build the city from scratch.

Their ranks are expected to plunge 70 per cent this season, Rachkovsky said, to say nothing of the likely impact on short-term visits. Together, snowbirds and short-termers typically spend more than US$6 billion in the state each year.

---

Even politicians we hate, even disgustingly inept ones can be “right” occasionally. Ford too, has spent boat loads. Dug us even deeper than we already were. Who is going to pay for all this. Our grandchildren’s, grandchildren?

“Best case” is people start spending like crazy ( not going to happen). People are stressed, losing income, worried about the future.
We’ve thrown the have nots ( about 60% of the population) under the bus. And even many of those that “make it to shore” are going to be hurting for years to come.

Meanwhile, about 20% or 30% of the population is skating through this.

Government stimulus.
Always helps, but is usually good for some people, not others. Classic is example is yet again GM and Oshawa. 800 million from Ford and Trudeau for 2,000 in the GTA....

We are a consumer soceity. Our economy is a consumer economy. And that means....

Will also add, I am now in the sub prime world. That world where the majority live. Want to guess what I’m seeing these days? More and more people whose incomes are dropping, more and more people whose credit resumes are dropping.....Also fully expect my business to explode in 2021.

Just curious. How does O’Toole plan to supercharge the economy, pay off billions in more debt, and give the have nots a life ring? Or at the least not crush them any further. Or given they have no plan, do they think budgets balance themselves.

Translation of what Chrystia Freeland said, incase you guys havent read between the lines yet:

" My less-than-competent Liberal government has spent money like drunken sailors and put this country into a record amount of debt...in the near future to "unlock" your savings all banks will offer negative interest rates on any savings accounts so we can "get this economy going again"

What an absolute joke, record debt, shrinking GDP, carbon tax, recently increased CPP in Jan, and you know HST is going up in the near future..we have absolute fools at the wheel in control of this country its a dam shame

Lol Kokes.
Not a bad translation.

Negative interest rates.
The possibility is a wee bit more real. But I doubt it.
HSBC just announced 5 year variable mortgages starting at .99%. But only for borrowers with less than 20% down. And that because those mortgages are insured. Which means they are lower risk to the banks.

Can say, banks are getting stingier on approvals for financing. We’ve been seeing that since late summer. On one hand “can’t blame them”. On the other, it’s not helping the economy. The less people “spend”.....

Just last week I tried to help a PSW get a loan. Her income is dropping, fewer hours. Had to explain her banks want recent pay stubs, not ones from the summer. “Sorry no loan for you”
*************

Prior to 2020 more than 50% of the population were subprime. If your Subprime loans for anything are harder to get. And rates are higher...
People have been deferring mtg, loan, credit payments. People are seeing their incomes drop, their credit scores drop. And not a few people. Boatloads...

The average household savings for 80% of the population is $850......

Meanwhile......

Anywho, with respect to what Freeland said or was talking about. She’s “right” ( note quotes).

Jben

It's only going to get worse more debt and fake money getting tossed out the door only for more shutdowns.


Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

The have already started the ball rolling. No where near affected but can easily trickle down should they chose to play with numbers and start removing trailing zero's so that everyone pays.
"The NDP will propose a motion calling for a tax on people with fortunes over $20 million"
"The PBO estimated 13,800 Canadian families would pay the tax and that it would bring in $5.6 billion in 2020-21"

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ndp...-day-1.5789923

Tend to agree Fishfood.

Back in the summer, once we “re-opened”, the economy briefly jumped back. All that “pent up” spending. Or as Freeland called it “pre loaded stimulus”. It was extremely evident in real estate. But did it come all the way back? Not remotely.

Later this winter or spring we can hope for things to be more “normal”. But back to 2019 normal? Lol please. Even the most optimistic think it might be 2023. Before we are back to 2019.

And what does all that mean for “the middle class”. Who prior to 2019 were already sucking wind. Basically all the old arguements here over the years. Things like CPP, and an aging population, the greater numbers of whom live pay check to pay check. Can’t save, can’t live a little, etc etc etc. and the fact, now, in 2020 they’ve been thrown under bus.

We can hate on JT and rightfully so. Fords doing no different.

Which ever, what ever and whenever the dust starts to settle.

The economy, and especially for the “have nots” it’s going to be in tatters.

And

both provincially and federally, we are going to be so far in debt......

That's because the health care system is running our economy.

Wasn't it the health care that wanted the guns banned [emoji724] [emoji1787] it will make their job easier they said . Why because people who can't think for them selves don't see the real pictures the real problems. If they did they would of tackle the real problems .

The long term care homes are being battered why ? It's not the publics fault or the restaurant open that's created these outbreaks.


The focus should be there not about closing the economy. The problem should of been dealt with months ago but it's not and the economy will suffer.

I feel bad for the millions of Canadians that are suffering trying to make an honest living on the verge of loosing everything.

Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

I hope the Federal government and provincial governments can use some of this money to RE TRAIN or TRAIN people in Canada for jobs that are going begging .We here of skills shortage from employers all over the place ,why can we not re train people or in some case train people. Try getting a plumber or electrician to your home (that knows what they are doing), need a bricklayer or stone mason, good luck. Need a team of guy's to put up metal roofing (a growing demand) you can't find them.

This is the tip of the ice berg, I could go on and on Diesel Mechanics....

For me over 65 years old I could take on pretty much any simple job because I am still in good shape physically, but there is an enormous disincentive I would have my OAS clawed back dollar for dollar, why even bother.

So there are simple things that could be done.

Gilly, on an individual basis most young people are willing to work. It seems though that when a company finally becomes established in their trade they seem to become less accountable for their work results. It's more about getting the job or contract then moving on to the next one regardless of their customers satisfaction.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilroy

I hope the Federal government and provincial governments can use some of this money to RE TRAIN or TRAIN people in Canada for jobs that are going begging .We here of skills shortage from employers all over the place ,why can we not re train people or in some case train people. Try getting a plumber or electrician to your home (that knows what they are doing), need a bricklayer or stone mason, good luck. Need a team of guy's to put up metal roofing (a growing demand) you can't find them.

This is the tip of the ice berg, I could go on and on Diesel Mechanics....

For me over 65 years old I could take on pretty much any simple job because I am still in good shape physically, but there is an enormous disincentive I would have my OAS clawed back dollar for dollar, why even bother.

So there are simple things that could be done.

---

It's simple the newer generations want the most for the littlest amount they can do . We are putting ourselves into a place where we are less dependent on ourselves and more dependent on others .

Crappy work done by the union's trying to get it done as fast as they can with shotty craftsmanship lol. Have you looked at these new subdivisions lately it's about speed and it shows it everywhere. But they always want more for their crappy work lol

We need to be more free and have our own voice not be told what is good from our government's. Everyone thinks they are to make the big bucks [emoji28].

The greed over money is unavailable money is number 1 when the human life should be .





Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilroy

I hope the Federal government and provincial governments can use some of this money to RE TRAIN or TRAIN people in Canada for jobs that are going begging .We here of skills shortage from employers all over the place ,why can we not re train people or in some case train people. Try getting a plumber or electrician to your home (that knows what they are doing), need a bricklayer or stone mason, good luck. Need a team of guy's to put up metal roofing (a growing demand) you can't find them.

---

Ontario's Minister of Labour Monte McNaughton is doing precisely that.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7302343/o...killed-trades/

https://globalnews.ca/news/7502593/o...killed-trades/

I think we could learn from place's like Germany where kid's are streamed into jobs based on their talents at a very early age. Not everybody will be a software developer and that software guy will not make a good framer. But we need to recognize kid's talents early on in the process and steer them to training where they will make a living. We have tens of thousands of folks who have BA's hanging on their walls, after four years of expensive schooling and they are only good for wallpaper.

The first courses to be taught are 'I AM NOT ENTITLED TO EVERYTHING COURSE' and the next one 'HOW TO USE A DEBIT CARD PROPERLY'.

To try and put this is some kind of context that remotely makes sense.

I personally know 4 households where both people are now out of work.

Me and my fiancé. Both out for months. I found work in finance, but it pays less, and it’s basically sales. Right “now” people aren’t willing to go into debt....... If I’m still here in June it could be crazy busy due to things. My fiancé was out of work. She’s now a book keeper for an electrician that runs his own place and is going broke trying to keep his 12 employees employed.

My sister and her husband.
She was a director in HR for a big pharma company. Her husband a district sales man for a big plumbing company. Both now in a world of hurt...

Good friends.
He an area salesman for a big concrete supplier. He alone did 5 million in sales “last year”. She was a book keeper.

A friend out West.
She ran “bookings” for an event center. With tourism in the trash, She was let go in Sept. Her husband a mining consultant. He was let go a few weeks ago......

What are the prospects for them? How much of their savings are they blowing through? How many sleepless nights wondering where and when their next pay checks will come from?

Way too many people have this BS notion it’s just the lazy people that are “waiters”...

Don’t know anyone that’s died from Covid or even ended up in the hospital.
Nor am I aware of any cost cutting measures. It’s just spend spend spend spend.

Used to be governments telling you to save for a rainy day and in return you would be paid decent interest for doing that. Now they are giving money away for free almost and giving you nothing for saving. Here's a thought, why don't we increase interest rates to say 4 - 5% that way the real estate market tanks and house prices drop to a more realistic level. That's my idea of a reset......oh and stop the foreign investment of our real estate with corrupt money from countries like China.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by huntervinni

Used to be governments telling you to save for a rainy day and in return you would be paid decent interest for doing that. Now they are giving money away for free almost and giving you nothing for saving. Here's a thought, why don't we increase interest rates to say 4 - 5% that way the real estate market tanks and house prices drop to a more realistic level. That's my idea of a reset......oh and stop the foreign investment of our real estate with corrupt money from countries like China.

---

You got my vote.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilroy

You got my vote.

---

you got my vote and I actually agreed with Gilroy on something - now THATS a statement! :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by huntervinni

Used to be governments telling you to save for a rainy day and in return you would be paid decent interest for doing that. Now they are giving money away for free almost and giving you nothing for saving. Here's a thought, why don't we increase interest rates to say 4 - 5% that way the real estate market tanks and house prices drop to a more realistic level. That's my idea of a reset......oh and stop the foreign investment of our real estate with corrupt money from countries like China.

---

There is other places to put your money that pays out more besides the bank. Maybe you can find what you are looking for [emoji6].

Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

I think she’s a bigger dingbat that trudeau


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilroy

I think we could learn from place's like Germany where kid's are streamed into jobs based on their talents at a very early age. Not everybody will be a software developer and that software guy will not make a good framer. But we need to recognize kid's talents early on in the process and steer them to training where they will make a living. We have tens of thousands of folks who have BA's hanging on their walls, after four years of expensive schooling and they are only good for wallpaper.

The first courses to be taught are 'I AM NOT ENTITLED TO EVERYTHING COURSE' and the next one 'HOW TO USE A DEBIT CARD PROPERLY'.

---

Terry,
I agree with you 100%. I am a creature of exactly what you speak of.

I went to school in the 1980's and you were pushed to either university or college - very little focus was on the trades. I went to university for Environmental Studies and in my 3rd year of my 4 year degree I realized that there is very little opportunity to be gainfully employed in my field so I was reluctant add any more student debt. I was fortunate enough to have well paying summer jobs (Stelco Steel) allowing me to pay for most of my education, but I was still taking on some debt. I left Ottawa in May after completing my 3rd year of studies and started my electrical apprenticeship (IBEW 105) in June. For the next 5 years (5,000) hours I worked on my apprenticeship hours, trade school, and went to McMaster at night to finish my degree. I felt that I was too close not to complete it. In 5 short years I wrote my C of Q and became a journeyman electrician & later that year attended my university graduation and convocation in May.

My take away's:
- Teachers and guidance councilors are the last people that should be making any career recommendation. Most teachers left teachers college and went directly to a teaching position without any real world work experience. Even today my schools have math or history teachers filling in for shop teachers - makes no sense. I remember one teacher telling student to study computers (IT) and you will have the world in the palm of your hand - 80% of all IT jobs have been outsourced to offshore service providers.
- You need to pivot and be dynamic and not put all your eggs in 1 basket
- Keep on top of technology and changes to the market.
- Options......you always need options.

They can start by bringing back income splitting, tax breaks, and raising the interest rate.

By doing nothing and making those statements you are just fanning the flames of the underground economy

All in support of Canada's Agenda 2030. "EXTRA EXTRA Read all about it"

Financing for the SDGs

"Social finance is an important tool that can significantly enhance Canada’s progress on the SDGs by seeking to mobilize private capital for the public good"

Fancy words for "We want your money!"

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-...-strategy.html

https://www.international.gc.ca/worl....aspx?lang=eng

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 410001661

They can start by bringing back income splitting, tax breaks, and raising the interest rate.

By doing nothing and making those statements you are just fanning the flames of the underground economy

---

If you're serious about wanted us to use our locked up savings to stimulate the economy Ms Freeland....how about waving the taxes on the money being withdrawn from our RRSPs in "these exceptional times". HaHa...

How do they plan on doing this?
I mean end poverty and all?

It's a tricky little thing to do, it's been happening for year's and now more then ever more people are falling into it.

Is there a plan for this just how do they end poverty. Another trillion dollars can't fix it would just be a temporary patch lol.




Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishfood

Is there a plan for this just how do they end poverty.

---

It's called the 'Guaranteed Income Supplement"..part of the Global Reset plan.

If your interested in how this all works (or doesn't work) ...spent a few minutes and listen to it being explained...

Quote:

---

Canadians borrow from the world to buy from the world.
They get the money and jobs.
We get the debt.

---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV6l_NTOly4

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikePal

It's called the 'Guaranteed Income Supplement"..part of the Global Reset plan.

---

So if take my guaranteed income and blow it up my nose or party to much and don't pay my bill. Then what?

Am i guaranteed a nice house all bills paid and phone covered ( gas)( for the car a new electric car) hahah [emoji23] . Going to need some fishing supplies too [emoji6]

Free stuff for everyone lol.

Not going to work Money won't change how a person is or what they choose to do.

It's a doomed plan already lol.

Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikePal

It's called the 'Guaranteed Income Supplement"..part of the Global Reset plan.

---

The Guaranteed Income Supplement is for people aged 65 or older and piggy backs on the OAS.

https://www.canada.ca/en/services/be...upplement.html

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by impact

The Guaranteed Income Supplement is for people aged 65 or older and piggy backs on the OAS.

https://www.canada.ca/en/services/be...upplement.html

---

So sorry, my bad...it's the "Guaranteed Minimum Income" that I meant to say...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaran...e%20is%20rare.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikePal

So sorry, my bad...it's the "Guaranteed Minimum Income" that I meant to say...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaran...e%20is%20rare.

---

Oh yeah back to the basics lol [emoji107]

And who pays for that?

Don't sound like a very promising plan to end poverty [emoji2]


Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikePal

If your interested in how this all works (or doesn't work) ...spent a few minutes and listen to it being explained...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV6l_NTOly4

---

I kinda like most of what he say's but there is no way Canadians especially retired one's are going to risk investing in equities and helping out the economy, they were all burned in the last melt down ,which is exactly why there is a record amount of money just sitting in savings accounts. Retired Canadians are getting next to nothing for interest and the government knows
they will probably gift money to their kid's for their first home, so hence keeping the housing bubble going.Also retiree's are living longer and have no idea if their saving's will keep them till the end.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikePal

So sorry, my bad...it's the "Guaranteed Minimum Income" that I meant to say...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaran...e%20is%20rare.

---

Yes, Ford cancelled the pilot.

"The province of Ontario began a minimum income experiment in 2017. Approximately 4000 citizens began to receive a stipend based on their family situation and income.[30] Recipients of this program could receive upwards of $10,000 per year. Government researchers used this pilot as a way of testing to see if a minimum income can help people meet their basic needs.[31] On August 31, 2018, following a change in government, incoming Premier Doug Ford announced that the pilot would be cancelled at the end of the current fiscal year."

I have “mixed” thought on some form of UBI.

In theory, many believe it could work. Germany has started one, I guess they get to be the guinea pig.

Could it work here?
Possibly, but so much around taxation would need to change. However at its simplest and most basic.

What would things look like today, if not for soooo many receiving CERB over the summer. I’m thinking ugly.

The basic premise is that by giving millions a little more picket change. Which they will spend. It helps everyone

Consider the topic and the link to stats Canada. The vast majority of people are living paycheck to paycheck. Struggle to save.

20% of the population saves tons/spends tons......they are still just 20% of the people. As important, maybe more important is where those people spend.

Where do they dine out?
Where do they vacation?
Where do they get oil changes and brakes done?
Ad nauseum.

Certainly not at “no frills”.....

Where as, by putting more spending $ into the pockets of those in lower brackets. Well they spend at Joe Garage, mom/pop diners. And so on and so on, and eventually upscaling. Bottom up, rather than trickle down which has largely been proven to be a sham.

One thing is certain and Pierre Poilivre had a great vid on it. Something to do with a Greek ruler and farmers ultimately killing their cows. Throughout history, when the peons say enough or are broken. Well it all comes crumbling down. Happened in Rome, to the Czars, Marie Antoinette.

and we never seem to learn.

Why not just create good paying jobs. what made this country successful in the first place. Simple isn’t it.

How’s that been working?
When I was a kid, most families lived ok on one income.

Are there not serious concerns about CPP? Did Wynne not see a need for ORPP?

Look around today.
Home Depot, Walmart, Amazon getting all the business. While small shops flounder. While most of that is Fords fault. No one is forcing “you” (not you specifically) to order from Amazon. And as Pierre noted in the vid Mike linked above. All that money, your choosing to spend at Amazon is going outside Canada.

People are upset because Freeland send spend your savings... that sounds more like a me first rather than “if we spend we help create jobs”.

Look at the wealth gap. It’s been widening for 60 years. Where is it? Between the well off (upper middle class) and every else. See the link to stats Can.

We can look at free trade and jobs leaving ever since...Automotive and manufacturing also come to mind.

How many people in Canada make $90,000? 10% that’s how many. So where are all these “jobs”
:)

Well now that Alberta is in the Crapper, the gta really.
/points to population and housing prices. Demand>supply.
So sure, let’s crowd even more into the GTA. Because that’s where the $ is. :)

And on and on and on
:)

Point being.
That approach is failing.
Obviously.

Has been for awhile.
And no matter what, no matter it’s “spun”. Every business, small, large, sole proprietor.

You needs customers with pocket change first.and these days. The majority..............

For perspective only. To “highlight” the point that all businesses need customers with disposable income.

First and foremost.

Many of us, I’m sure can in fact remember growing up in single income households. Today. “Yeah right”....and the median single is in the 40s.....the duo around 80k. Let those numbers sink in.

from the 1990s. Oh so long ago...before manufacturing, before 2008. Before a bunch of new taxes...

“The nearly 21 million individuals who were income recipients in 1995 had an average total income from all sources of $25,196, down 6% from 1990 after adjustment for inflation. This decrease wiped out gains during the second half of the 1980s. As a result, average total income in 1995 was almost identical to that in 1985, and slightly below the level of 1980.”

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/dail...980512-eng.htm

Obviously taxation is part of the problem. As is PS being immune to downturns. So the “cost” of government remains the same, while incomes on the whole go down. Repeat that a dozen times and........

Point being. Or points if you will. Stagnant wages, jobs leaving Canada, taxation and more. Are part of it too...and despite all the virtue signalling...

The have nots, middle class
Are getting pummelled.

And any business needs people with change to spare. Which these days the majority of the population do not have.

Well we only work January through to into May (43%) for money to put in the gov't's pocket... probably more now with the new carbon taxes etc.
https://globalnews.ca/news/3691159/c...ser-institute/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

For perspective only. To “highlight” the point that all businesses need customers with disposable income.

First and foremost.

Many of us, I’m sure can in fact remember growing up in single income households. Today. “Yeah right”....and the median single is in the 40s.....the duo around 80k. Let those numbers sink in.

from the 1990s. Oh so long ago...before manufacturing, before 2008. Before a bunch of new taxes...

“The nearly 21 million individuals who were income recipients in 1995 had an average total income from all sources of $25,196, down 6% from 1990 after adjustment for inflation. This decrease wiped out gains during the second half of the 1980s. As a result, average total income in 1995 was almost identical to that in 1985, and slightly below the level of 1980.”

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/dail...980512-eng.htm

Obviously taxation is part of the problem. As is PS being immune to downturns. So the “cost” of government remains the same, while incomes on the whole go down. Repeat that a dozen times and........

Point being. Or points if you will. Stagnant wages, jobs leaving Canada, taxation and more. Are part of it too...and despite all the virtue signalling...

The have nots, middle class
Are getting pummelled.

And any business needs people with change to spare. Which these days the majority of the population do not have.

---

Not many think about what's under them or care . There are alot of people struggling and it's not just financial. It's been going on long before this pandemic .




Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

Actually Jben I grew up in the Maritimes and every single family I knew had 2 incomes. Usually the husband was the primary and the wife usually had a part time job at the minimum. My own mother raised us while running small business outside from the house and when all of us kid's grew up she sometimes managed some stores then went back to running daycare's. In fact even my grand parents time both parents worked.

So I am not familiar with this period of there being a sole bread winner this must be an Ontario thing only as it never happened in the Maritimes at least not since the early 1900's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by greatwhite

Actually Jben I grew up in the Maritimes and every single family I knew had 2 incomes. Usually the husband was the primary and the wife usually had a part time job at the minimum. My own mother raised us while running small business outside from the house and when all of us kid's grew up she sometimes managed some stores then went back to running daycare's. In fact even my grand parents time both parents worked.

So I am not familiar with this period of there being a sole bread winner this must be an Ontario thing only as it never happened in the Maritimes at least not since the early 1900's.

---

Both my wife and I parents single Income and well as both our grandparents. . Some of the grandmother worked young during the war. .

Not hard to find but many jobs have stayed in the same range since the 90s. but every thing else has skyrocketed.

Might have gone up a little but not much . Government increased and minimum has gone up some in the middle have not really moved.

Father in-law was getting mid 20s an hr in the 90s trucking long hours . Many won't start of that high 18 20 still some more but many not much. . He left because they wanted to cut his pay he told them to f off lol. A house was only 50 k then in the GTA area. My dad was making about 60 thousand a year then when houses were cheap again in Keswick 50 k for the house.
I know some now that make 50 to 125 an hr but Many others are not making much more then back then.
Still today many in the mid 20 an hour range but a house is a million now.

Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

I would love to know how Banks can, with the average family income of only $80k a year, qualify people for $500k+ properties. That's insane.

Back in the 90s when our family income was about $80K (above average back then) the BOM would only per-arrange us a mortgage for $120K..... and required a huge down payment to avoid the high CMHC insurance rate.

What changed...why are the 'average' wage earners allowed to mortgage such huge debt ??? Who is buying up these $500k+ homes in the urban sprawl ??

Why are people being allowed to put themselves in that position ? The mortgage stress test is suppose to stop them from doing stupid things like that.

People are hurting...a lot of that is self inflicted.

I can still remember when 'DINKs' was a new thing....Duel Income No Kids. They drove consumerism to lofty heights, that's what started the housing boom and pretty soon you couldn't even qualify for a mortgage unless you were a family with dual income.

Gone were the 'Leave it to Beaver' families with a working Dad and stay at home Moms.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikePal

I would love to know how Banks can, with the average family income of only $80k a year, qualify people for $500k+ properties. That's insane.

Back in the 90s when our family income was about $80K (above average back then) the BOM would only per-arrange us a mortgage for $120K..... and required a huge down payment to avoid the high CMHC insurance rate.

What changed...why are the 'average' wage earners allowed to mortgage such huge debt ??? Who is buying up these $500k+ homes in the urban sprawl ??

Why are people being allowed to put themselves in that position ? The mortgage stress test is suppose to stop them from doing stupid things like that.

People are hurting...a lot of that is self inflicted.

---

Because that's what many make, the housing market has gone up 10 time's almost in the last 20 years.

What have the wages gone up to by the middle class ? Just a few bucks more then the 90s .

If wages jumped as high as the housing has we would all be making a quarter million a a year or more . But many of them are the same.

In the last 20 years

Houses 100 thousand for average home today 800 thousand

Milk fairly stable only gone up a little buck

Gas 50 cent to a Buck25

Meat has doubled

Cars have more than doubled

Much of the pay has stayed the same tho.

I know some places paid 30 thousand now worth over a million. They still made 40 thousand a year when they bought the place.
Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

I grew up in the beaches. The house my parents bought cost them 16,000. When I was 10 or my dad was making 27,000 as a firefighter. Mom took a job as a secretary somewhere around 1970. Most of the families on out street were single income.

Mike.
Re debt and consumerism. What would our lives be like it today if not for it? Hard to say, but one thing is certain is that it’s fueled our economy for decades. No spending, no economic growth.

As stated I’m in that world now. I get people financing. By far, by very far most of the people I work with are sub prime. Meaning their credit score and resume are under 750. I’d also guess 80% of the people I work with have gross ( b4 taxes) incomes between $2,000 and $4,500 a month. Right around the mean.

How many of “you” know what your credit scores are.

I honestly have no real idea what next. We need to create jobs yes. Good paying ones. We need to raise incomes. Can’t really force companies to pay more. Aren’t we already spending billions to bail too many out?

Where?
People go where the jobs are. Look at housing in the GTA. It’s not rocket science. So we need to diversify.

Taxation.
We need to give a ton of people more disposable income. Cutting taxes is like a basic income. It does much the same.

We are now in debt beyond our eyeballs. Our governments need revenue.So...........

We also need thousands of
PSWs, RNs, dieticians, inspectors, Therapist. Drs and GPs for the 800,000 people without. I’m sure all of us here would love to see a few thousand more COs and biologist.

Long winded way of saying/suggesting we are “top heavy”. Across the board. To illustrate that look at PS. Why can’t we afford more of “everything”. Well quite obviously because too many make too much.

20%
Vs
80% the have nots.

In Germany, and Scandinavian countries people are funnelled or work in fields where they are naturally inclined to. Here,,people try to go where the $ is.

housing here didn’t really start to get insane until 2012. Just a few short years after 2008.

J Ben

I found some old news papers in the walls of a house .

Downtown House's Toronto was listed for 18 thousand lol. Crazy how much it has gone up.

The bidding wars on homes are not helping its just keeping the market going up . Some have the ability to afford it where many other's do not. My fil paid his house off in 12 years he doesn't like paying extra he keeps his money lol.



Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

Well on “that”.
I bought a nice house in Whitby in 2011. I offered $335,000 ( they were asking 340,000). No one else was bidding on it. The next year there would have been line ups and today that same place would likely go for 800-900.

So why in the space of say 2 years was there sooooooooo much demand...
/points to 2008 and jobs going “poof”



Today,
Rentals are just as insane. My daughter just took a 1 room. $600/month.

Places in outlying regions are utterly stupid. PTBO, St Catharines, London, Lyndsay. Where the local economy is vastly different. The mean duo in PTBO is $60,000. So people that have grown up in those areas. Have incomes in the 30,000 range. Are screwed. Being pushed out.....Basement rentals in PTBO are now going for $1,500.

How many jobs In PTBO, Lyndsay, St Catharines pay $60,000 year? Just the OPP and Hospitals, that’s how many.

It’s Fd, very fd.

I’m going to link an article shortly. But first I need to try and get a single mom that makes the mean ( 44,000) and whose credit isn’t great. A loan, so she can buy a car, so she can get to from/work.

one reason I linked the stats from the 90s was to show how incomes are going down/staying the same. Every time there’s an economic downturn, incomes for the masses go down. Permanently.

Lots of people lose jobs. The vast majority eventually find work. But it’s work that pays less ( bills to pay, mouths to feed)....

/looks at 2020

Everything is relative to demand. My son went to Columbia University in NY city, on a 'fellowship' for one semester. He paid 2400.00 U S dollars a month for a 700 sq. foot, 'bachelor apartment'....... $24,000.00 U.S. dollars for 10 months rent. Everything but the toilet ,in one room. Even then, that was hard to find. People will charge what the market will bear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

Well on “that”.
I bought a nice house in Whitby in 2011. I offered $335,000 ( they were asking 340,000). No one else was bidding on it. The next year there would have been line ups and today that same place would likely go for 800-900.

So why in the space of say 2 years was there sooooooooo much demand...
/points to 2008 and jobs going “poof”



Today,
Rentals are just as insane. My daughter just took a 1 room. $600/month.

Places in outlying regions are utterly stupid. PTBO, St Catharines, London, Lyndsay. Where the local economy is vastly different. The mean duo in PTBO is $60,000. So people that have grown up in those areas. Have incomes in the 30,000 range. Are screwed. Being pushed out.....Basement rentals in PTBO are now going for $1,500.

How many jobs In PTBO, Lyndsay, St Catharines pay $60,000 year? Just the OPP and Hospitals, that’s how many.

It’s Fd, very fd.

I’m going to link an article shortly. But first I need to try and get a single mom that makes the mean ( 44,000) and whose credit isn’t great. A loan, so she can buy a car, so she can get to from/work.

one reason I linked the stats from the 90s was to show how incomes are going down/staying the same. Every time there’s an economic downturn, incomes for the masses go down. Permanently.

Lots of people lose jobs. The vast majority eventually find work. But it’s work that pays less ( bills to pay, mouths to feed)....

/looks at 2020

---

Hey JBen - good to see you back!!!

Heya Werner.
I suspect not permanently and only for something “big”. Like these times.

For the record, unlike Canada housing in the US is slowly becoming more affordable. Biggest difference between them and us?. They are huge, with dozens of large cities/regions/economies. In a nutshell. One large city in the US doesn’t get 70% ( let alone their own citizens that find themselves looking for work) of all immigration like the GTA does, because that’s the only place with good jobs/money........

On debt
https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/busine...7QMi9fVSACZ6t8

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

Heya Werner.
I suspect not permanently and only for something “big”. Like these times.

For the record, unlike Canada housing in the US is slowly becoming more affordable. Biggest difference between them and us?. They are huge, with dozens of large cities/regions/economies. In a nutshell. One large city in the US doesn’t get 70% ( let alone their own citizens that find themselves looking for work) of all immigration like the GTA does, because that’s the only place with good jobs/money........

On debt
https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/busine...7QMi9fVSACZ6t8

---

It's not just TO though. Ottawa is seeing crazy increases. The value of our house (bought in 2017) has increased by about 60% in three years.
The TO craziness has expanded to areas two hours drive from downtown TO.
Even up in Renfrew county - where houses and vacant land was always cheap - its reached there too.

Low interest rates and the money printing machines going full speed.
Now would be a good time to read up on the Weimar Republic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Hey JBen - good to see you back!!!

---

I concur . Even though we do not always agree, his insightful comments are always welcome.

[QUOTE=werner.reiche;1135141]
Even up in Renfrew county - where houses and vacant land was always cheap - its reached there too.
/QUOTE]

You are certainly not kidding! Neighbour just sold his house, 10 years ago it would have went for 100K. Everything is outdated, old wiring, paneling walls and shag carpet, $250K with 36 hours on the market!

Sent from my SM-G973W using Tapatalk

Ottawa and outlying regions yes also. I would suggest similar dynamics. Just nowhere near the same. There's only so many places to live and work. Why did tens of thousands of maritimers leave the East Coast for Toronto back in the day (and still do)? Why did 10s of thousands of Ontarians head to Alberta between 2006-2010..... The GTA does get 70% of all immigration...

On housing.
https://www.mykawartha.com/news-stor...or-new-buyers/

PTBO is in crises.
The median duo income there is around $55,000. People are leaving the GTA in droves, flush with cash and their high paying jobs. Utterly killing the PTBO market and those that live/work there. One person we all know and like has been screwed by it.

London and St.Catharines are seeing the same. People can't even afford rent there.

Lindsay, which was one of the 5 pilot programs for basic income Ford and his mentally challenged brain killed is brutal. Lindsay after 2008 ( when they lost plants) is nothing but retail, the OPP, the Hospital, Jail and College. The basic income was going to small business owners, restaurant owners, retail workers and more. And yes, those on welfare everyone moans about :)....What is was doing, was putting a little more pocket change in peoples pockets, where they spent it......helping other businesses, who in turn spent on the roofer, who spent it on a used car, and the used car salesman spent it on...I don't know a dinner out or vacation....

A place just up the street from me, sold for $1,100,000 in August. It was nothing special....No doubt a couple that plans to commute to the GTA. Two doors up, a Cop and 911 dispatcher moved in during July. They both commute 3+ hours each day into the 416.......for work. What kind of a life is that!!!!!!!!

Anywho,
2020 and beyond.. About the only thing I can even guess at, is millions of middle class people are going to be hurting even more than they already were. Lower incomes, worsening credit "scores" or resumes as we call them, which makes it harder to borrow and rates are higher. Where even landlords these days run credit checks. When I was started out first/last and a reference were enough.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/pie...t-card-economy

Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

Just a few observations I have made reading these posts and comments.

GW folks in the Maritime Provinces seemed to always get looked after by the Federal Government. I hear stories of guys fishing all summer making good money and then going on EI all winter. Would you really need two incomes?

The banks these day's do have stress test for mortgages basically they will lend you $200,000 for every $50,000 you earn.

In relation to two incomes, I managed on one for the past 40 years and raised three kid's,I knew guy's at GM who took home bigger pay's than me.

The middle class were screwed over by Globalization,Reaganomics,Thatcherism, and Wall Street Bankers.

There was no trickled down effect it was all pouring up to the 1%.

Poileivre had me until the last paragraph.
Don't misunderstand. I really like him and wish he had run for the Con leadership. However at the end of the day he is a politician. An actor playing to the crowd, whipping his supporters into a frenzy, using rhetoric, and blowing stuff out of proportion. In many ways he reminds me of Angry Tom and Jack Layton. :)

Gilroy, trickle down is a sham. We know that much.

Banks use a few test for mortgages and even car loans. The most common being TDS ( Total Debt Servicing) and GDS ( Gross Debt). Basically how much of your gross income is eaten by debt obligations and things like home heating/land taxes etc.

When I pull "your" credit bureua amongst other things is your credit utilisation. How much of your total credit availabity is being used. 50% is a cut off. Many people also do not know how credit cards help or hurt you. Or that the soft limit is 30% of the actual limit. Go over that, and your credit resume starts taking hits. That's why some people come to me with incomes over 100k, or 200k and they still cant get financing.

I read a great article the other day on the fallacy of some things since the 50s ( around the time duo incomes started becoming more common). Will see if I can find it.

somewhat related, and while not the article I was looking for it touches on some of the same things. The other article looked at ironically savings and investing. Which really gained steam in the 1950s/60s. "Co-incidentally" around the time duo incomes started becoming the norm. The author "argued" that as investing became more available to more people, the corporate mindset of shareholder profits took off.

Look around today.
We see companies leaving Canada for greener pastures. Whether manufacturing or energy. Whether because taxes are too high, or wages are too high. The bottom line is the bottom line.
We see companies ( 70 of them) that ponied up to the trough, took government handouts ( CEWS) and still paid shareholders dividends. wtf!
We see Walmart, Home Depot, Amazon having huge years, as are all the banks....Its all about profits and shareholders......right?

https://financialpost.com/business-i...pay-capitalism
/points to 80% of the population and an average household savings of $850/year

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

somewhat related, and while not the article I was looking for it touches on some of the same things. The other article looked at ironically savings and investing. Which really gained steam in the 1950s/60s. "Co-incidentally" around the time duo incomes started becoming the norm. The author "argued" that as investing became more available to more people, the corporate mindset of shareholder profits took off.

Look around today.
We see companies leaving Canada for greener pastures. Whether manufacturing or energy. Whether because taxes are too high, or wages are too high. The bottom line is the bottom line.
We see companies ( 70 of them) that ponied up to the trough, took government handouts ( CEWS) and still paid shareholders dividends. wtf!
We see Walmart, Home Depot, Amazon having huge years, as are all the banks....Its all about profits and shareholders......right?

https://financialpost.com/business-i...pay-capitalism
/points to 80% of the population and an average household savings of $850/year

---

Well JBEN is a flip side to all this Corporate greed, ordinary folks like me can play the same game. Having come from very little in my childhood, I expect very little and need very little. So I only buy the basic necessities and have been doing so for years.

I have never every paid a red cent on credit card purchases in the way of interest. I understand I am paying some of it to the retailer for the credit card company charging them. I have only very once had a brand new car.

Lots of retiree's have money in the bank (not acquired since Covid BTW). But the retirees do not need to spend, they have homes already paid for ,the car's are paid for and the seasonal properties are paid for. They are afraid of the stock market as its a casino for the rich, they cannot afford to loose money, and some of them cannot afford to make money (claw back on pension income).

So what is the solution.

I am going to make a concerted effort to not buy anything from China (its going to be difficult) if I have to buy and this is to punish them in my own little way for all their recent bs.

Gil...You sir, are pretty close to describing my scenario. There are many more of us now in the same situation.

Solutions?
I doubt anyone knows. Though I did like PPs thoughts on reducing red tape, fast tracking infracture and projects without throwing additional hundreds of millions or billions at them. I'm sure there's far more, question is will there be political will power and or the stomach. Dont forget we now have tens of billions in additional debt hanging over our heads.....

Credit cards:
Your actually better off leaving the balance ( if its under 30%) and at least until the statement date. If you pay them off, the balance reports as 0.00 and the banks assume you aren't using them. No indication if you are managing your credit well.

You'd be surprised how many seniors I see coming in for car loans Gilroy. With little but CPP or some other, if their credit isn't really good....... Want to guess what the interest rates are? Well its nothing for a $15,000 car to become a $30,000 car by the time its paid for. Worst rate I've seen for anyone was 34% and they didn't have a bankruptcy or repo in their history. Though did have a couple previous write offs.
Yep, if I'm still employed next summer, I expect to be crazy busy...

Working with another guy that wants a truck for his business. He's Irish, fairly new to Canada. While his history is "good", it's what's known as thin. He's paid cash for most things most of his life, so the banks don't know where to peg him ( its the same with young people). Is he risky, is he not? No history, no way to know. The best rate he'll get is 12%. Over 6 years and say 30k financed, thats about 19,000 in interest.

Banks have you nine ways to Sunday.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...481d0cf65b.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Whoops.

JBen on the credit cards that is not correct, I pay my off twice a month when I get paid and no it doesn't show up like your not using them.
Considering I worked for the bank for a short time and my whole family does work for the banks (CIBC, I personally bank at Scotia). The faster you pay things off it builds your score. Even today if you have a good credit rating and you are not borrowing beyond your means it is not hard to get a loan if you have a decent credit rating. Even when I was quite poor I was able to get the best rates.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

Solutions?
I doubt anyone knows. Though I did like PPs thoughts on reducing red tape, fast tracking infracture and projects without throwing additional hundreds of millions or billions at them. I'm sure there's far more, question is will there be political will power and or the stomach. Dont forget we now have tens of billions in additional debt hanging over our heads.....

Credit cards:
Your actually better off leaving the balance ( if its under 30%) and at least until the statement date. If you pay them off, the balance reports as 0.00 and the banks assume you aren't using them. No indication if you are managing your credit well.

You'd be surprised how many seniors I see coming in for car loans Gilroy. With little but CPP or some other, if their credit isn't really good....... Want to guess what the interest rates are? Well its nothing for a $15,000 car to become a $30,000 car by the time its paid for. Worst rate I've seen for anyone was 34% and they didn't have a bankruptcy or repo in their history. Though did have a couple previous write offs.
Yep, if I'm still employed next summer, I expect to be crazy busy...

Working with another guy that wants a truck for his business. He's Irish, fairly new to Canada. While his history is "good", it's what's known as thin. He's paid cash for most things most of his life, so the banks don't know where to peg him ( its the same with young people). Is he risky, is he not? No history, no way to know. The best rate he'll get is 12%. Over 6 years and say 30k financed, thats about 19,000 in interest.

Banks have you nine ways to Sunday.

---

Great white. We’re you a “teller” Or someone in credit?
How often have you read an Equifax report or trans union?

Equifax reports do NOT show your transactions. It shows the limit, and balance. The dozens or hundreds of buy/pay you do...


The way you are using CCs the balance will be 0.00. Doing virtually Jack for your score. Might as well get a card a never use it.

Could also mention that Revolving credit such as CCs show as R1 to R9. With nine being the worst. How often your late, delinquent, etc etc. in other words they don’t really care how good you are. What they care about is how bad you are....

Curious GW.
How many scores are there that lenders look at? I’d bet you think 1. My “credit score”.

nope, there’s 3. Though lenders really only care about 2 of them.


Lol interest calc. Thanks.
Knowing this place I should have actually grabbed my calc. 6 years x 3,600? Took .5 a second and longer to type it..... Yes I’m quite aware the principal depreciates. Illustrative post.
But people always have to find bones. :). But yes thanks.

If I wasn’t breaking all kinds of privacy laws I’d actually show a report and what lenders look at.

and for the record. Equifax is extremely secretive with respect to their proprietary algorithms.

My Dad was the Top CIBC in NB, he also did the auditing for Equifax and most of the big banks in NB, NS, NFLD. Essentially he was the top person. He retired 20 years ago. My whole family works for the bank system. About 150 years between them, yeah I know enough with a quick phone call.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

Great white. We’re you a “teller” Or someone in credit?
How often have you read an Equifax report or trans union?

Equifax reports do NOT show your transactions. It shows the limit, and balance. The dozens or hundreds of buy/pay you do...


The way you are using CCs the balance will be 0.00. Doing virtually Jack for your score. Might as well get a card a never use it.

Could also mention that Revolving credit such as CCs show as R1 to R9. With nine being the worst. How often your late, delinquent, etc etc. in other words they don’t really care how good you are. What they care about is how bad you are....

Curious GW.
How many scores are there that lenders look at? I’d bet you think 1. My “credit score”.

nope, there’s 3. Though lenders really only care about 2 of them.


Lol interest calc. Thanks.
Knowing this place I should have actually grabbed my calc. 6 years x 3,600? Took .5 a second and longer to type it..... Yes I’m quite aware the principal depreciates. Illustrative post.
But people always have to find bones. :). But yes thanks.

If I wasn’t breaking all kinds of privacy laws I’d actually show a report and what lenders look at.

and for the record. Equifax is extremely secretive with respect to their proprietary algorithms.

---

There’s a fair bit out there.
But as you can see. The government recommends 35% and make your payment.

On time.

With credit cards thats 30 days from the statement date.

Day 1 you $100 on
Day 2 you pay it off.
Day 15 the statement reports 0.00 balance. That’s all Equifax sees a balance of zero for months/years....

Day 1 you put $100 on
Day 15 the statement report a balance of $100
Day 16 to 36 you pay it off.

Wash/rinse/repeat.

https://www.canada.ca/en/financial-c...dit-score.html

But there's a caveat. After a certain period of time, your credit card issuer may close the account for inactivity if the card isn’t used occasionally – which may negatively impact credit scores. Using your credit card for small purchases and then paying the balance in full each month will generate positive payment behavior, however, and will keep the card active”
https://www.equifax.com/personal/edu...credit-scores/ card

Decided to add more. It’s off topic in ways, but these days, so important. So very important.

GW, a bit of an apology. When I “teller” that wasn’t meant as any kind of slight. But as banking is a huge industry. I myself have spent my whole life in “banking” and finance. I’ve learned a couple things since starting in this arm...

Hardly a week go by when I’m not surprised by something. Some weeks, that’s people being approved despite horrible “scores” and brankruptcies, or repos. While others get denied.

I won’t get into specifics but last week someone was denied by 7 institutions due to their postal code. One bank rep even said. “To be honest, we didn’t even look at their bureau, their postal code was enough”...

That surprised the hell out of me....At first. Then it made perfect sense.

I would encourage anyone and everyone to go to Equifax and check your score. Beware, what you will see is not what lenders see. Be aware also of free services like Credit Karma. For lack of better words they “guess”. It gets you the ballpark of your “score”. Can’t tell you how many people when asked “do you know what your score is like?” And they say sure I checked credit karma a couple months ago. I’m around 650.

Sorry your a 575

Banks ( lenders) like to see a mix of credit. The most common being R, O, I.
R1, O1, I1
Pays on time. Meaning, within the allotted allowed time.
Page 10
https://assets.equifax.com/assets/ca...user_guide.pdf

Still chuckling about the interest calc. :)

Guys lets face it, by the banks standards if you have a pulse you can get approved for any mortgage / loan you want...the money supply is so lose and our government just keeps printing it this is all contributing to pricing running up accross the board, from bread to cars to houses.

Id like to see 5-6% interest rates, and if some people get caught over-extended then so be it.... Id like to be able to retire and invest my hard earned money in a GIC and earn a decent rate, not the measly 1% theyre offering now - its sad were almost forcing retirees to put their money in the over-inflated stock market to earn any sort of return...we need higher rates, and a competent government as well, no question about it.

If you have ample cash, do you still have a need for a credit score? Why ?We use the C.C. for points and % $ return on use , pay it off at the end of the month. We have a 50 thousand $ limit on our card, and used it to buy a car last year, got good points on that purchase.

The dealer let you put a car on a credit card? Never seen that before but yes Sweet deal for the points. I have asked the dealers before and they told me no and yes I have the room on mine as well. Sure would have been nice if they would let me do that. My old man has asked before as well and he buy's a new car every 2 years but they still would not do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

If you have ample cash, do you still have a need for a credit score? Why ?We use the C.C. for points and % $ return on use , pay it off at the end of the month. We have a 50 thousand $ limit on our card, and used it to buy a car last year, got good points on that purchase.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by greatwhite

The dealer let you put a car on a credit card? Never seen that before but yes Sweet deal for the points. I have asked the dealers before and they told me no and yes I have the room on mine as well. Sure would have been nice if they would let me do that. My old man has asked before as well and he buy's a new car every 2 years but they still would not do it.

---

Thats odd, the dealer must know the car will be sold anyway. I've seen a number of people purchase a car via CC.

Sent from my SM-G973W using Tapatalk

Of the new vehicles purchased in recent years the max I was allowed to deposit on a credit card was about $2K. The balance had to be a bank draft. The dealerships need to pay the credit card companies a fee. So lets say 2% on a $40,000 vehicle. That would be $800 out of their pocket. Most don't like that.

“Depends” Gord.
Does someone that’s “set” need a good credit score? I would say yes. Because life happens. Like 2020, like divorce, like major illness, like retirement ( planned or forced).

I expect over the next 10-20 years, reverse mortgages are going to become the norm. But some people might want to downsize. Sell the house and rent a condo.

Landlords pull credit these days. And with housing going the way it is. Who would you rent to. Someone that’s a 600 or someone that’s prime ( 760)?

December and January are usually the busiest months for auto loans. People forget how to drive. Last week when we got our first real snowfall. I counted 6 vehicles in ditches. And 2 trucks that smashed into each other. If the 6, 4 were certainly write offs. Maybe the truck owners still had 40,000 financed, didn’t have gap insurance. And suddenly needed another 60,000 truck, but also had to eat 15,000 in negative equity ( loan >>>asset).

I might offend some people. It’s not intended. For many many years, I saw the “world” the same. I had this warped idea of what life was really like for the majority. I thought everyone made 50,000 and 80,000 was middle class. I thought many had pensions and savings. I mean all my friends and everyone around me did. Then I discovered I was in the 10% club.....

Inflation.
We should expect the price of food to go up 5-7% this year. For a family of 4, that will add hundreds of dollars to their cost of living.

The majority of Canadians live “pay check to paycheck”. Can’t save.

Maybe that family wakes up one morning only to discover their stove died. Or their bathrooms flooded. And they do not have $2,000 or $10,000 burning a hole in their pocket.

Is using a credit card a matter of choice or necessity?

I mentioned PTBO. The mean duo is 55,000 there. Are we all so naive as to think cars, stoves, roofs, food, and other things are cheaper there.....
Housing may be cheaper but that’s about it....

Credit resumes might be the difference between a mtg, or a landlord renting. Ask the self employed how hard it can be. /looks at 2020 and millions “pivoting”.

more importantly, your score determines your rates.....

GICs and what not.
Banks pay interest on such things, dependent on prime, and inflation etc.

5% GICs would mean inflation is.......

As people approach retirement, one killer is often taxation and inflation.
What good is a 3% GIC if inflation is 3%?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by greatwhite

JBen on the credit cards that is not correct, I pay my off twice a month when I get paid and no it doesn't show up like your not using them.
Considering I worked for the bank for a short time and my whole family does work for the banks (CIBC, I personally bank at Scotia). The faster you pay things off it builds your score. Even today if you have a good credit rating and you are not borrowing beyond your means it is not hard to get a loan if you have a decent credit rating. Even when I was quite poor I was able to get the best rates.

---

Just for information. Paying off credit faster than the original amortization does not give you a better credit score. The score is calculated on your repayment on regular intervals. It doesn’t help to pay it off early other than the reduced Cost of borrowing. Revolving credit, just needs regular payments and the balance falling. Cheers.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

You are right JB. I guess I sometimes forget how 'set' I am. Having 2 indexed pensions in the house sure helps....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by greatwhite

The dealer let you put a car on a credit card? Never seen that before but yes Sweet deal for the points. I have asked the dealers before and they told me no and yes I have the room on mine as well. Sure would have been nice if they would let me do that. My old man has asked before as well and he buy's a new car every 2 years but they still would not do it.

---

If a dealer lets you pay for a car with a credit card, you didn't negotiate a very good price on it.
They've got bills to pay too.

Just like you tell them you have a trade in, after you get the price they will take for their vehicle on paper. Tell them how you are going to pay after the figures are finalized. They don't like it, walk.

Gord we grew up in a vastly different world. As I get older, I'm glad I'll be dust in under 50 years. I really can't relate to what life is like for youth, most people these days. We've touched on how when we grew up, families could be comfortable on one income. When we grew up, houses, cars, appliances and more were built to last......these days cha ching, cha ching ta cha ching. Childcare, Food and Braces, ch ching cha ching ca ching.....

Median incomes...I struggle to wrap my brain around these numbers.

Car insurance wasn't insane, nor did a set of winter tires cost $1,000, and wheel bearings $500 each, nor was Hydro through the roof. You could enter the workforce with or with out mountains of student debt, and find decent jobs.....People often spent their entire working life with one company. I believe these days, they say the average is 7. Maybe your lucky and that's because your constantly upwardly mobile. I suspect that's not why. Even if you manage to go 25-30 years without losses to income, or benefits. I know when my company went bankrupt, I went from 5 weeks vacation to.....Whats a rental in Durham these days? $1,800 for anything decent? I've seen ads for White oaks in Whitby ( um, not exactly a great area) for $1,500. Student debt, data plans, ( O on your equifax btw) car loan, so you can get to/from work, yada, yada.

Back to savings or the lack of it and ultimately 2021.
We as a soceity are spending ungodly sums of money ( rightly or wrongly) to keep a huge chunk of society, and businesses a float. Why? because they cant go a few months.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

Just like you tell them you have a trade in, after you get the price they will take for their vehicle on paper. Tell them how you are going to pay after the figures are finalized. They don't like it, walk.

---

If you negotiated a good deal, they'll tell you where to put your credit card.
If they say CC is okay, you should restart your negotiation and ask for another 2% off price for non-CC purchase - 1000 bucks on a 50k car.

A good dealer, one wanting to make the sale, or one you have dealt with on numerous occasions before,( knowing you will be back), would be smart and split the diff. between the points,($), you get and the % they have pay to the card companies.
Then both parties walk away thinking that they got a good deal. And you will be back. Works for us.

Gord, we grew up in a different world. As I get older I am glad I'll be dust in under 40 years. :)

We've touched on how when we grew up families could live "comfortably" on one income. We grew up when houses, cars, appliances and more were built to last. Ta ching Ta ching Ta ching.
Childcare, Food, Braces, Hockey/Dance, more. Ta ching Ta ching Ta Ching

When we grew up, most people spent their entire working lives with one company. I believe the average is 7 now. Maybe that's because a person is lucky and constantly upwardly mobile. I suspect that's not why. So the number of people going their careers without income losses, benefit losses, vacation time losses....

Median Incomes: I struggle to wrap my brain around these numbers.

Car insurance, Hydro rates, a set of winter tires ($1,000), Wheel bearings and brakes.
House insurance and land taxes.....
Data plans ( An O on your Equifax btw)

When we grew up, a person could enter the workforce with or without mountains of student debt and find a decent job....And keep it....
Even Rentals. What's a decent place in Durham region these days, $1,800? I've seen ads for White Oaks ( not exactly a great hood) at $1,500.
And on
And on

Back to savings or the lack there-of and 2021. We are spending ( rightly or wrongly) ungodly sums bailing huge chunks of society and businesses out. Why? Because they can't go a few months.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by impact

Yes, Ford cancelled the pilot.

"The province of Ontario began a minimum income experiment in 2017. Approximately 4000 citizens began to receive a stipend based on their family situation and income.[30] Recipients of this program could receive upwards of $10,000 per year. Government researchers used this pilot as a way of testing to see if a minimum income can help people meet their basic needs.[31] On August 31, 2018, following a change in government, incoming Premier Doug Ford announced that the pilot would be cancelled at the end of the current fiscal year."

---

Saw an update this morning to those numbers and how they think it works......not taking into account that when you give people free money they stop working , not the other way around...

Quote:

---

The first, a guaranteed minimum income based on the design of Ontario’s cancelled basic income pilot project, would ensure a minimum income of $24,000 for individuals and $34,700 for couples. The second program, based on a proposal by UBI Works, would guarantee a minimum income of $24,000 for individuals and $36,000 for couples, while also paying a $6,000 “universal dividend” to all adults.

The report found that, depending on which program was used and how it was funded, it would create between 298,000 and 598,000 new jobs after five years, and add between $36 and $84 billion annually to Canada’s GDP.

Each program “has the potential to essentially eliminate poverty in Canada,” the report says, while also raising between $389 and $514 billion in new tax revenues over 25 years.

---

and the kicker..they want us to believe that increasing our taxes to pay for it will be considered an investment HaHa..

Quote:

---

"Marinescu said he hopes the report will get people to consider basic income programs as an investment with a “rate of return in real economic numbers, not just a cost.”

The report considered a wide range of possibilities for how a basic income program would be funded, from being mostly paid for by government debt, to mostly covered by taxing households and businesses. Smetanin said the analysis showed that to have the most positive economic impact, the program should be funded primarily by taxing higher income households."

---

from: https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/202...ic-canada.html

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikePal

Saw an update this morning to those numbers and how they think it works......not taking into account that when you give people free money they stop working , not the other way around...



and the kicker..they want us to believe that increasing our taxes to pay for it will be considered an investment HaHa..



from: https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/202...ic-canada.html

---

UBI is totally backwards thinkings..... Its like if I give my kids an allowance for doing NOTHING then I'll scratch my head and wonder why they dont know the value of money while I also have not instilled a hard work ethic into them... a guaranteed chance at failure..

The day they bring in UBI I will retire. Not hard for me to work cash and collect UBI I will be further ahead. Woohoo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by greatwhite

The day they bring in UBI I will retire. Not hard for me to work cash and collect UBI I will be further ahead. Woohoo.

---

That's exactly what happens...any time there is a 'claw back' of benefits, they just ensure they work for the underground economy. Taxpayers lose at both ends of that brain fart idea.

One of the best things Doug Ford did....

"Both programs would “claw back” 50 cents for every $1 of employment income and 100 per cent of all income from other government transfers, excluding the Canada Child Benefit and the $6,000 dividend."

So, if you are already receiving OAS, CPP you give it all up in favour of this new program. If you need to supplement your income to pay additional bills due to inflation you will only get 50 cents on the dollar.

Trades people / construction workers, the backbone of our society will only get a marginal amount more of income than people staying at home pulling their chain.
The underground economy is about to disappear once they eliminate cash transactions in the very near future. Tips and services will be taxed at 50%.

Where is the incentive to get people working and dreaming big? The material rewards of working hard and enjoying the fruits of your labour?
A socialist program where everyone is equal, no more / no less.
Gone are the million dollar homes and cottages by the lake. Only the super wealthy will be able to afford it.
Think about how much $40,000 after taxes in real dollars actually buys you these days. Basic living and that's about it.
They are eliminating the middle class.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by impact

So, if you are already receiving OAS, CPP you give it all up in favour of this new program. If you need to supplement your income to pay additional bills due to inflation you will only get 50 cents on the dollar.

---

The claws backs will affect EI, Welfare , Rent subsidies ..all the other social safety nets that 'poor people are drawing now.

Well if I have no mortgage and my house hold expenses are approx 2000 a month. Yes I am rocking. Considering it isn't difficult to find cash money. In 2 weeks I can easily bring in between 1500 - 2000.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by impact

"Both programs would “claw back” 50 cents for every $1 of employment income and 100 per cent of all income from other government transfers, excluding the Canada Child Benefit and the $6,000 dividend."

So, if you are already receiving OAS, CPP you give it all up in favour of this new program. If you need to supplement your income to pay additional bills due to inflation you will only get 50 cents on the dollar.

Trades people / construction workers, the backbone of our society will only get a marginal amount more of income than people staying at home pulling their chain.
The underground economy is about to disappear once they eliminate cash transactions in the very near future. Tips and services will be taxed at 50%.

Where is the incentive to get people working and dreaming big? The material rewards of working hard and enjoying the fruits of your labour?
A socialist program where everyone is equal, no more / no less.
Gone are the million dollar homes and cottages by the lake. Only the super wealthy will be able to afford it.
Think about how much $40,000 after taxes in real dollars actually buys you these days. Basic living and that's about it.
They are eliminating the middle class.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikePal

The claws backs will affect EI, Welfare , Rent subsidies ..all the other social safety nets that 'poor people are drawing now.

---

Ok, I re-read 5 times and see that now. The 50% claw back would be on the income over and above the guaranteed basic income.

I wonder if you guys are the ones thinking backwards. Don't mistake that as me completely onboard. I'm just not afraid of change, afraid of doing things a little differently.

Around the time Wynne announced the pilot, there were a few studies coming out of Alberta given the absolute S kicking they were going through after 2012. What researchers were finding, particularily in and around smaller towns. And just makes plain and utter sense. People lower down the income scales spend all their money. Where do they spend it....At Starbucks? Buying BMWs, at Sobeys and Loungos? lol ffs back around 2000 Walmart parking lots would be largely empty. Today, they are crammed full, even before Covid.........How do you guys not see this?

In 2016 I moved near Lindsay despite knowing it was a dead and dying town. Like so much of small town Ontario...It was one of the 5 pilot programs. Being outside Lindsay but close, I started reading a lot of local news. I'm a news junkie, what can I say? I read more than just a couple articles, that featured recipients. The best one I can recall was a hubby/wife that was trying to run a small restaurant. Like so many other small businesses today we are trying to keep going for good reasons...Reasons you all agree with...Yet reading some comments.....:)

Anywho that basic income, was enough that they could run the restaurant, work long hours, pay a waitress....and ....spend their pocket change at other small/local places in their "income bracket" per se.........who in turn spent where exactly?

This was another one
https://lindsayadvocate.ca/woman-on-...e-mpps-office/

Yes, obviously some things with respect to taxation would need to change, meaning not simply just collect more.
I think somewhat obviously though I dont know, it would need to be more "regional'. And not just everywhere.Call it investing in people, rather than corporate welfare if that makes you feel better.

Or think outside the box. If 2020 isn't us forcing us to reexamine things.
Nothing will

Jben there were also cases of people quitting their jobs to go on this system. To be honest I would quit my job. I would take some savings and pay off my house with no mortgage I would be laughing all the way to the bank. In fact I would probably be further ahead. I would no longer need to set money aside for retirement or my mortgage. Considering how easy it is to find cash jobs I would essentially be working part time but have more money. In fact most people I know would do exactly the same. I'm not poor either after tax I make 6000 + a month after tax but of that 3000 goes for mortgage and retirement. leaving me about 3 grand. So yeah I would be much further ahead. If the government gave me 2000 I can easily make another 1500 in 2 weeks working cash my wife could probably do another 1000 in 2 weeks cash. That gives us 4500 a month and no debt.

I would say everyone I know friends and family would quit tomorrow.

It’s a great idea. Now who are they going to steal the money from to give to me? I’d like 5g a month please. Maybe it will get the people off the street corner too.

Don't disagree GW.
As I said, obviously taxation ( how we raise, how, where we spend) would need to change. Not a chance in hell it could be done on a wider scale given current tax policy/regime. Fiscally, I'm as right wing as anyone here. Allow me to change wording a bit.

How does any company big or small, start or grow without seed capital. Standard R wing ideology. They find investors who provide the basic income..Sorry seed capital.....

Outside of times like this I don't favour "corporate welfare" at all. Not because it cant work, but because it always benefits a few and not the many. We end up with SNC, Bombardier, GM, Air Canada, Mars, Samsung....The list is endless. Great if you work there......the very many?????

Today: Trudeua and Ford are throwing 700m at GM/Oshawa to keep 2,000 employed and "hopefully" tiered recipients ( aka "trickle down"). I wonder how much we spend every year in welfare and corporate welfare alone. Let alone the armies of social workers.......

I vividly remember when Walmart first started cropping up here. The odd car/patron. Today, it's jammed packed. Why? because that's what people can afford. This has scared the hell out of me for the better part of 12 years.

Yes there will be those who disinclined to work. But why would they "really".

$1,000 / month + whatever I make working. Or $1,000 month.

Anywho, based on the reports out of Alberta, its just something I think is worth exploring. Especially in area's of Canada that are economically depressed and could use a shot in the arm. The only real way to grow and ecomomy is through spending. Imagine what $1,000/month would do for a lot of maritimers, who in turn spend it on A, then B, then C...

Would I want JT running it.
Lol :)

It has possiblities. We can see that today with whats going on.