Who needs who?

I was re-reading that made in Canada thread which got me thinking. Most of the worlds goods are manufactured in Asia, with the majority of that coming from China. It made me ask the question, who is more dependent on who?

It wasn’t too long ago that China was a starving and struggling nation. They shot up the ranks relatively quickly. They are now an indisputable manufacturing juggernaut. This has really turned them into a world super power.

So how long could we last without importing or exporting, with them? Could we or anyone else drastically reduce trade with them and survive? Could they survive without these big trade deals?

In recent news I read an article about Asian populations in decline. Japan is aging quickly. Chinas one child policy isn’t going as planned and now that two children are allowed, this generation isn’t in any hurry to marry and procreate.

Do we even have the infrastructure, population or drive to manufacture most of our goods here? what industries would really suffer from a lack of exportation and will it affect us as a whole?

With the way China retaliates against its trading partners at times, what if they held out for a long time. Could they create enough damage to cause another nation to give in to its demands?

Maybe this is all far fetched but it’s food for thought.

Just take a look at the stuff in front of your face as you read this.....everything, everything came into Canada in a sea container. We don't make our 'stuff' here anymore.

The pandemic has shown us a sampling of what happens if the supply system is interrupted, empty shelves and every thing back ordered. If we stopped buying goods from China, there wouldn't be a Walmart and Costco.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Just take a look at the stuff in front of your face as you read this.....everything, everything came into Canada in a sea container. We don't make our 'stuff' here anymore.

The pandemic has shown us a sampling of what happens if the supply system is interrupted, empty shelves and every thing back ordered. If we stopped buying goods from China, there wouldn't be a Walmart and Costco.

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I was reading an article the other day they are sending the shipping containers back empty so China can fill them up. Usually they go back full but China is paying for them to return empty .



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It's always about profit............ Manufactures won't mass produce products here if we don't guarantee to buy their products. Most products produced (made in Canada) cost more in the stores.
Manufacturers (big business) wants profits, so for now, we (Canadian shoppers) are more than happy to buy Made in China gunk because it is cheaper.
We, the people of Canada must convince big business that we are will to pay more for Made in Canada products before we ever see a shift.
Can we mass produce products here in Canada absolutely but until big businesses sees the same or better profit margins, they won't do it. It doesn't make financial sense for them to do so...
We Canadians, need to promote (tell big business) we are willing to pay a little more for truly Made in Canada products.. We need big business to invest in Canada but unless we convince them we are willing to allow them to keep their same profit margin, it just won't happen IMO.

I think China has now got way to big for their britches. They are dictating to other countries how things are going to be.

Without the west initially helping them then set up factories and employing them they would still be back in the dark age they left.

How have they thanked their customers, by stealing our intellectual property, violating copywrite, selling sub standard and at times dangerous good's.

Who need's who?


Without gas, propane and oil ,coal from Canada and Australia ,without steel and agricultural products from the USA, China would be in a whole world of trouble.

We survived for centuries without trading with China and I believe we can take back millions of jobs if we had the will.

I would stop all trade with them and not allow them into either or real estate market here or allow them to buy into Canadian companies.

One of the reasons our real estate here is unbalanced is the influx of Chinese money, placing our kids in a position where they cannot afford a home in their own land.

At the very least any trade we do have with China must be under the exact same terms.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

I think China has now got way to big for their britches.
One of the reasons our real estate here is unbalanced is the influx of Chinese money, placing our kids in a position where they cannot afford a home in their own land.

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If our immigration didn't have these open door policies as well as our governments allowing the influx of Chinese money here in Canada, nothing will change.
Regardless to the parties in power our government is who allows it to happen and they are the ones to put a stop to it.

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

If our immigration didn't have these open door policies as well as our governments allowing the influx of Chinese money here in Canada, nothing will change.
Regardless to the parties in power our government is who allows it to happen and they are the ones to put a stop to it.

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I agree with you 100%.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

I think China has now got way to big for their britches. They are dictating to other countries how things are going to be.

Without the west initially helping them then set up factories and employing them they would still be back in the dark age they left.

How have they thanked their customers, by stealing our intellectual property, violating copywrite, selling sub standard and at times dangerous good's.

Who need's who?


Without gas, propane and oil ,coal from Canada and Australia ,without steel and agricultural products from the USA, China would be in a whole world of trouble.

We survived for centuries without trading with China and I believe we can take back millions of jobs if we had the will.

I would stop all trade with them and not allow them into either or real estate market here or allow them to buy into Canadian companies.

One of the reasons our real estate here is unbalanced is the influx of Chinese money, placing our kids in a position where they cannot afford a home in their own land.

At the very least any trade we do have with China must be under the exact same terms.

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Gil,
I agree 100% but they have us so addicted to cheap stuff I am not sure Canadians have the appetite to really break ties with China.......unless of course we find another 2rd world country to exploit until they, like China, becomes the tail wagging the dog.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

I think China has now got way to big for their britches. They are dictating to other countries how things are going to be.

Without the west initially helping them then set up factories and employing them they would still be back in the dark age they left.

How have they thanked their customers, by stealing our intellectual property, violating copywrite, selling sub standard and at times dangerous good's.

Who need's who?


Without gas, propane and oil ,coal from Canada and Australia ,without steel and agricultural products from the USA, China would be in a whole world of trouble.

We survived for centuries without trading with China and I believe we can take back millions of jobs if we had the will.

I would stop all trade with them and not allow them into either or real estate market here or allow them to buy into Canadian companies.

One of the reasons our real estate here is unbalanced is the influx of Chinese money, placing our kids in a position where they cannot afford a home in their own land.

At the very least any trade we do have with China must be under the exact same terms.

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Bang on Gilroy. It’s often mentioned that Nortel’s fall was the result of Chinese industrial espionage; that company was one of Canada’s diamonds and when it fell millions of Canadians were out thousands from their savings. We’ve rewarded them with more business and WHY HAVE WE NOT BANNED HUAWEI LIKE ALL OUR ALLIES ?? Sadly the answer is that the Trudeau Liberals are a little too China-friendly

Part of the reason new companies won't setup in Canada is because Canada really doesn't want them. Ever notice how Tesla's are setting up all over the world not Canada.

When was the last time a large company (excluding mining or existing companies) started up in Canada. Notice how Starlink will only be sold online in Canada, nobody wants to setup shop in Canada.

They would get people yelling and screaming. If I developed the latest and greatest computer gadget or a new product I would not manufacture in Canada at any cost it's not worth it.

I still remeber in the early 2000's when Corel word was around in Ottawa owned by Michael Cowpland he offered his product for free to Ottawa and Kanata the city said we don't want your stuff and a week later the city was asking if he would donate some money. So he was slap in the face and asked for money.

Most countyries want companies to setup in Canada in the last 6 years we have been chasing away companies this is normal Liberal Logic chase away any and all Jobs as fast as possible.

Anyhow^^^^^^^^???????


It’s a “what comes first chicken or egg” situation. Let’s say that we stop trading immediately. That would probably sink us. It needs to be gradual. If they cut us off first, as a retaliation for something stupid, then we’re left scrambling for options.

I agree that our government needs to step up to make it easier for Canadian grown businesses to start up. But the blame can’t solely be placed there. The people of Canada, US!!!, we need to take a stand or at least believe in ourselves. We are so full of natural resources, we are full of potential. We need to seize the moment, before it slips away.

I’m not saying trade is not healthy, but I think it needs to be done a little more fairly. On the world stage China has a monopoly on trade. Long term effects could be disastrous. It might be time that the world strikes a different tone and globally reduce their reliance on China.

When answering who needs who, I think we all need each other fairly and equally.

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Originally Posted by 410001661

Gil,
I agree 100% but they have us so addicted to cheap stuff I am not sure Canadians have the appetite to really break ties with China.......unless of course we find another 2rd world country to exploit until they, like China, becomes the tail wagging the dog.

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Well that is the problem we are addicted to cheap stuff but nobody has figured out it AINT cheap stuff because you replace it so often.

I found a Montreal made Homelite 93cc chain saw in the garbage a year ago, a saw probably 60 years old. It is built like a tank, I had it running almost right away. You buy a Chinese made snowblower in a big box store, no gas shut off even installed, made to last about 3 seasons.I have an 25 year old Tecumseh snow king ,probably 40 years old starts first time.

Back in the old days anything with made in USA, Canada ,England, Sheffield, mean something,,,, it would last.

We can easily go back to those standards if we choose to do so.

I have to agree with you on this most stuff Chinese is cheap because that is what the masses want. I buy Chinese stuff but not always cheap stuff. The Chinese do make some good stuff.
But most stuff is built to be thrown away if it is Chinese.

Like you I have a 35 year old snowblower and was saving my Canadian tire money to buy a new one the one I had picked out was almost the biggest Chinese junk they had spoke to a few people on here and my Uncle who is a mechanic and some mechanics around here and all said if mine is not rusted out I would be far better to repair it or else buy a "Real Snowblower" that has a good engine.

But I do have some cheap Chinese stuff that works well, I have a digital scale I paid 3 dollars for off of Amazon shipped for free from China the exact same one sold here cost 20 bucks, go figure.

The Chines tools like wrenches and sockets nothing wrong with those. Without all of those I would not have the workshop I have today.

But these jobs were moved out of Canada because people wanted to much pay for a job that required little to no knowledge and that a monkey could do at a certain point it is no longer worth manufacturing in North America as nobody would be able to afford the items.

At a certain point of cost employers begin to look at alternatives. Look more and more stores are going to self checkout, why because cashiers are wanting more pay for just scanning an item essentially doing nothing.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Well that is the problem we are addicted to cheap stuff but nobody has figured out it AINT cheap stuff because you replace it so often.

I found a Montreal made Homelite 93cc chain saw in the garbage a year ago, a saw probably 60 years old. It is built like a tank, I had it running almost right away. You buy a Chinese made snowblower in a big box store, no gas shut off even installed, made to last about 3 seasons.I have an 25 year old Tecumseh snow king ,probably 40 years old starts first time.

Back in the old days anything with made in USA, Canada ,England, Sheffield, mean something,,,, it would last.

We can easily go back to those standards if we choose to do so.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

I agree with you 100%.

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Proof that anything is possible! Maybe i should rethink my the odds of getting a moose tag in WMU 47.

Few things to consider.
Better made stuff = fewer units sold per year = less consumption = less jobs = less gdp = less tax revenue

Immigration
We are getting older. Already in debt up to our eyeballs with fewer suckers ( birth rates) at the bottom to support and old, top heavy population

Companies are already fleeing, or refusing to invest here to expand. Because it’s either too expensive or politically uncertain.

Few things to consider.
Better made stuff = fewer units sold per year = less consumption = less jobs = less gdp = less tax revenue

R . Better made stuff=fewer units to landfill=less green house gases to manufacture=healthy planet=less man made sickness=less revenue needed for health care.

Immigration
We are getting older. Already in debt up to our eyeballs with fewer suckers ( birth rates) at the bottom to support and old, top heavy population

R. No solution for that one. Some of us are not in debt because we did not play the consumption game, some of us raised more children who will support those who did not manage to do so.

Canada is a multicultural society and immigration has always been part of the equation.

Companies are already fleeing, or refusing to invest here to expand. Because it’s either too expensive or politically uncertain.[/QUOTE]

R. Any company that was going to flee has already been gone a long time, it can be expensive to open in a place like China or Russia where you can get ripped off in pretty short order and they are also politically uncertain.

The reason birth rates are so low are because Taxes are so high. Lower Taxes and birth rates will go up.

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

The reason birth rates are so low are because Taxes are so high. Lower Taxes and birth rates will go up.

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That does not make much sense, poor people have historically had more children. Rich people have always had less children.

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

The reason birth rates are so low are because Taxes are so high. Lower Taxes and birth rates will go up.

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People are to wound up about careers and costs of having kids. Not just monetary costs but there are lots of people that are selfish, for lack of a better word, and just want to live their lives happily and responsibility free. Then again, there are lots of people out there that kids aren’t in the cards.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Back in the old days anything with made in USA, Canada ,England, Sheffield, mean something,,,, it would last.

We can easily go back to those standards if we choose to do so.

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We have to get rid of a lot of greedy unions first. As far as I'm concerned, they're at the bottom of this whole mess we're in now.

Actually that is part of the reason the Government raised the baby bonus.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

That does not make much sense, poor people have historically had more children. Rich people have always had less children.

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Originally Posted by sawbill

We have to get rid of a lot of greedy unions first. As far as I'm concerned, they're at the bottom of this whole mess we're in now.

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Your absolutely right..the cost of labour in Canada (ie unions) killed industry. Just look at Kitchener Ont. Free trade opened up the labour market in Mexico and many companies flocked there.

R . Better made stuff=fewer units to landfill=less green house gases to manufacture=healthy planet=less man made sickness=less revenue needed for health care.

Perhaps.
Bur your going on about the good old days when things were built to last. And we should buy Canadian. So less consumerism, = less growth in GDP= less jobs.

And we already can’t “afford” Canadian...today. Or have you not looked outside in 2020 ;) or since 2010....And are our govts not in debt beyond their eyeballs too?

Forest for the trees Terry.

Some are complaining about immigration. See taxation and affordability.........
don’t want new blood? Fine. Step up and pay for crap. You can start today. Check the box, give JT and Ford 50% more taxes voluntarily .


Flight of capital.
See above

Until and unless you figure out ways to make life affordable it’s a pip dream....
and most people don’t want to pay. Period. See today, see so many “debates” over the years. Anybody but me...

Companies/aka Jobs/aka GDP and the flight of capital .
See Hydro
See taxes
See keystone
See Unions
See PUblic service

So, if you want to cut off China, buy better stuff that last, etc, etc, etc

step the F up.
becasuse right now it’s not even remotely on the table. A to kind of tie it together.
lets use Carbon Taxes, EVs and save the planet.

presently, only about 10% of the population can afford an EV. Mass production at affordable to the masses prices is eons away.........

why?
see above. All the usual debates. Compared to 2006 when Walmart parking lots were still largely empty.....

“Massive human tragedy”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k-m4yjgIKh8

And this goes back to 2006.
A little before. When Walmart lots were empty.What’s been done about it?

Squat.

except maybe, today and for the next decade. It’s a lot worse. it would be nice, beyond nice to be less “reliant” on China, Cheap crap etc.

Then start making life more affordable for the masses...

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Your absolutely right..the cost of labour in Canada (ie unions) killed industry. Just look at Kitchener Ont. Free trade opened up the labour market in Mexico and many companies flocked there.

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They did that in the name of money (greed).... Blaming unions is silly, we all know it is extremely expensive to live here. Most don't make the wages now to purchase Canadian products. Reducing wages just makes buying cheap China products more likely.
Corporate greed/profits are the problem, not the cost of employees wages...

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Originally Posted by fratri

Corporate greed/profits are the problem, not the cost of employees wages...

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They go hand in hand...one example but there are many more: largest local employer, Nestle, in Winchester went thru a prolonged union strike for a salary increase. It was arbitrated and the company was forced to increase salaries. A year later, due to profit losses, they packed up Nestle and moved to Mexico.

Same with Hersey's in Smith Falls...the unions pushed for salary increases that crippled their bottom line, so they closed up and headed south.

The list goes on and on.

It's one of those 'which came first the chicken or egg' scenarios. Since we live in a Capitalist society, our cost of living is based on what we are willing to pay for a product or service. They more money we make the more we spend driving up that cost of goods and the cost of living. Unions are then pressured to increase salaries of their workers to match those increases. And the cycle continues.

Look at the cost of housing increases...the average home in a city now is $600+K..it's driven up by demand...so employees need more money so companies will forgo setting up shop here due to our higher labour cost.

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Labor costs are defined as core expenditure borne by employers for the purpose of employing staff. They include employee compensation, with wages and salaries in cash and in kind, employers' social security contributions and employment taxes regarded as labor costs minus any subsidies received.

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Take a look at the chart at link..Canada is rated 30th out of 138 countries in the the world in our cost of living.

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/labour-costs

What ever happened to blackberry did it almost get wiped out because of the Chinese

It's still around.

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Originally Posted by 3030

What ever happened to blackberry did it almost get wiped out because of the Chinese

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Take the link that follows somewhat broadly. That said, many show the same or similiar.
https://globalnews.ca/news/3531614/a...nada-stagnant/

So if wages, broadly speaking once adjusted for inflation have barely moved in 40 years......Has taxation remained the same?
And if not, what's that done to the bottom line. Both for the peons, who lose purchasing power ( which translates into revenue for companies) and so Walmart's become more popular, and companies seek greener pastures ( who can blame them). Has corporate greed, profits etc played a role too? Absolutely.

But no matter how its sliced and diced, it comes back to making life for the masses......more affordable. Double everyone's wages?
Great. Labour cost go up as does inflation.

And as for Unions. they are their own worst enemies.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Your absolutely right..the cost of labour in Canada (ie unions) killed industry. Just look at Kitchener Ont. Free trade opened up the labour market in Mexico and many companies flocked there.

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What is wrong with Kitchener, on HOT PROPERTIES CP24 they said the place is on fire for real estate prices because of the job market and that was on Thursday last?

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Originally Posted by 3030

What ever happened to blackberry did it almost get wiped out because of the Chinese

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They apparently have a lot of patents on products that still have residual value from what I have heard.

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Originally Posted by JBen

Take the link that follows somewhat broadly. That said, many show the same or similiar.
https://globalnews.ca/news/3531614/a...nada-stagnant/

So if wages, broadly speaking once adjusted for inflation have barely moved in 40 years......Has taxation remained the same?
And if not, what's that done to the bottom line. Both for the peons, who lose purchasing power ( which translates into revenue for companies) and so Walmart's become more popular, and companies seek greener pastures ( who can blame them). Has corporate greed, profits etc played a role too? Absolutely.

But no matter how its sliced and diced, it comes back to making life for the masses......more affordable. Double everyone's wages?
Great. Labour cost go up as does inflation.

And as for Unions. they are their own worst enemies.

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JBEN

Do you not think without unions the peons would be in terrible shape?

Do you agree we need a minimum wage that is a "living wage" .

Who's fault is it that "real wages" have not gone up for many?

Personally I avoid shopping at Walmart and basically only go there to buy Canadian made dog food. I do not like buying from Canadian Tire as the whole place is Chinese made and prices are over inflated. I do most of my grocery shopping at Loblaws and pay a premium for convenience in location.

Alot of Terry is as a few have mentioned circular, or "chicken/egg"

"stagnant wages"
Yep real.
But in many ways, isnt that the ideal? Wages and inflation being "flat" over the long term? Gilroy, if people got 5% per annum, how long do you think it would be before inflation was 5% or more? But what if, its only 30% of the population getting 5%, and 50% of the population gets 3%, and 20% get table scraps. 1.5%....... And is this not what we are talking about, worried about...the have nots or 60-70% of the population that cant find 2 nickles....
Well many lose ground to inflation.......wouldn't they?


And If everyone got raises, that would take bites out of every employers bottom line. AND it would result in inflation ( look up the main causes). And might it not, lead to some companies seeing more losses because parts/components cost more.....???

Unions
Have done a lot, with respect to work place safety and some other things. On the topic of wages, they've only hurt themselves. More specifically their members. "anyone but me syndrome".....Unions blame greedy companies...Nah, we had nothing to do with it ( the anyone but me part).

"living wage"
Or the very bottom of the food chain. Given times, things I would argue yes. But mainly because what most people forget is the problem is BOTH stagnant wages and taxes. Not either or, both! As above Terry.

If wages have been stagnant for 4 decades............And taxes certainly haven't....What's the end result.
less pocket change for the peons, especially ( those in lower middle class and down)

So with respect to the very bottom.
Increased wages is likely the easiest solution to making life "more affordable" for them. Tax cuts could help as well and is certainly far easier than forcing companies to pay more. Because are we not today, bailing all kinds of both out? But, for them. That ain't saying much.....

As for government/taxes.
Well, maybe its time people wake up and accept some things.