Post COVID return to work

Once the vaccines are implemented and we have some resemblance of order what will the modern workplace look like? I hear many people talking about not going back to the office (or rather not wanting to go back to the office). I saw this article and it got me to thinking. Sure there will be your rock star account managers or and other customer focusing resources you will need to retain but if your inside sales, technical support, finance, marketing, or logistics do not want to go back to the office and remain working remotely are they shooting themselves in the foot? If they are already working remotely why do you need to pay someone in GTA that salary & benefits to do the job that can obviously be done anywhere? If that person wants to move to Florida or their summer home on PEI and work remotely what is stopping your employer from just hiring someone from New Brunswick or Florida to do your job? It would certainly be cheaper to near source your back room support from a region that has a lower cost of living (and lower wages) than pay premium GTA wages to a person that is no longer living in GTA.

https://fortune.com/2020/12/06/offic...-stats-data-2/

I just think it is going to be a vey interesting next couple of years.

This is an interesting topic for sure, it has been in the back of my mind for a while. I fortunately (or unfortunately) have a job that requires physical presence but for so many this is becoming less so.

I'm sure it may appear lucrative in the beginning for companies minding the nickles and dimes, but things seem to have a way of ironing themselves out. Are the required skills available in other regions? Is working remotely as efficient as a physical presence? Will people from other regions demand higher wages knowing what the current market offers? Does the infrastructure exist for data transfer?

This could change things for a lot of people, offering more opportunity to people living in more remote areas and injecting money into the economies they live in. It could also motivate the current mass exodus of the urban areas and alter the lifestyle of rural Canadians.

I guess I should make some popcorn.

This topic has come up occasionally. I suspect at some point the people thinking this is great. Are going to regret it. Certainly there are some people that will be hard to replace. But the worlds a big place, with lots of people who have the skills and can do the same job for far far less.

We are also going to lag behind the rest of world recovering. When everyone is getting up to speed, we’re still going to be struggling. That could affect exports of goods and services.,,and bottom lines making us less competitive.

In the end who knows but if I was pulling in a GTA salary?and working remotely I’d be planning on a downsizing

I work as a Bell Field Tech, so that option was never in place for me, but I'm making it for you! ^__^
Soon you'll be out in the country home not too far from Bell Tower with (clear line of sight) Wireless Home Internet option of 25/5 or 50/10. Cheers.

Had read this earlier. Found another with some thoughts that make sense. Again these things are just plausible. What is safe to assume, is that over the next few years. A lot, likely will change. And for Canada, given some things (like taxation, expensive personnel and real estate.......heck even Hydro once again.

Our offices were on the top floor of one tower. The lease was a few million/year. Companies will start there. Why pay X million to lease in the GTA. If I’m looking at the bottom line, or even shareholder returns for publicly traded companies. “Do we really need 30,000 sq feet, when half the people”...

....personnel will come next.

https://www.ft.com/content/192eb45a-...6-57cb743ac2f2

And on the other end.
why pay a Canuck top dollar with our high taxation, lifestyle/col, when the world is your playground....

Language barriers? What does the same cost in New Brunswick? Think people there make the same $$ as those in Ontario?

Saw a blurb on office vacancy rates....I think an extension of the 'work from home' will be the mass demise of 'bricks and mortar office space.

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With thousands of Torontonians working from home, the downtown Toronto office vacancy rate is expected to grow even more by the end of this year.

According to CBRE’s new 2021 Real Estate Market Outlook, downtown Toronto office vacancy will rise to 12.4% this year — a noticeable increase from 2020’s 7.2% and 2019’s 2.2%.



Toronto’s suburban areas also saw an increase in the office vacancy rates, going from 11.8% in 2019 to 15.3% in 2020 to an anticipated 17.5% in 2021.

“It is anticipated that we could see some space reduction as [work from home] is more formally adopted, however we are just as likely to see footprints grow as occupier’s de-density their space and increase their space per-employee,” the report reads.

Prices for Toronto’s office rentals are “anticipated to hold near current levels in the year ahead” due to the “institutional nature of office tower ownership in Toronto,” the report says.

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Originally Posted by poltrojan

Soon you'll be out in the country home not too far from Bell Tower with (clear line of sight) Wireless Home Internet option of 25/5 or 50/10. Cheers.

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I had it installed last week..so far so good. I can see the light on top of the tower from my yard :)

I spent my life in those towers. Those are just the most obvious. Think about some standard white collar workers. Traders? Accountants, bookkeepers, lawyers, paralegals. Real estate lawyers and their people. The list is endless. Spin offs like TTC/Go train, all the retail with super high leases. In reality when the dust settles, Tory can lay off 10-20% of the cops and paramedics.
There’s way too many variables and moving parts.

But it’s already started.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...-scotia-plaza/

Long before Covid, I wondered why so many companies were in a rush to blow their money on GTA real estate prices and the salaries that accompanied them.

The company I work for closed down all regional sales offices in 2017 (including the Canadian office in Whitby) and moved the sales force and managers to home offices and build large head office in Chicago. Back room support (finance/pricing/inside sales/marketing) in the various regions was moved to Chicago.

In the beginning of COVID (April 2020), the company decided to go a agent sales model rather than the direct sales - laid off 82 sales guys in North America. Fortunately about 50% - 60% of the guys were hired by the agency now supporting our company. Now that the dust has settled there are 2 Canadian employees - me and a guy in Calgary managing two sales agency companies covering all of Canada.

I was on a WHQ (world headquarters) virtual meeting this week for a COVID update call and lots of questions around 'will I have to return to the office', and 'what happens if I made personal decisions that makes coming to the office more difficult'. Our VP said openly "let there be no mistake, when it is safe to do, we will be returning to our offices in the Chicago area just like we did pre-COVID".

I've worked from home and serviced remote clients in Canada and around the world for the last 20 years so the circumstances caused by COVID are nothing new to me. I've been doing video calls for years.

Remote working works if there is a pre-established relationship with the employer and among colleagues. The challenge becomes bringing in someone no one has met face to face. A lot of what makes a team successful are the interactions outside of the formal setting and I know my relationships with international teams were far better after a site visit.

What COVID has done is show that going into big office towers was as much habit as anything else and that companies can thrive without having large segments of the workforce under the same roof. When the storm subsides there will be more people working off-site but a wise executive would have his subordinates meet in person on a regular basis. So while people will be working from home, a far-away home wouldn't work.

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Originally Posted by JBen

I spent my life in those towers. Those are just the most obvious. Think about some standard white collar workers. Traders? Accountants, bookkeepers, lawyers, paralegals. Real estate lawyers and their people. The list is endless. Spin offs like TTC/Go train, all the retail with super high leases. In reality when the dust settles, Tory can lay off 10-20% of the cops and paramedics.
There’s way too many variables and moving parts.

But it’s already started.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...-scotia-plaza/

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The issue is when the white collar jobs start to leave Toronto - head offices and sales/finance/Bank offices start to move to cheaper suburban locations (Mississauga, Vaughan, Whitby), the people usually follow. This is the same model that reeked havoc on cities like Detroit, St. Louis, Cleveland, Buffalo leaving them dead. The term is called white flight and Toronto 'could' be the next victim. Now please let's not get jump on the soap box because of the name - it is not a white vs black thing it is the have vs have not thing.

Offices and higher paying jobs leave a city and the people making that money leave with it. The trades and technical jobs required to support these companies leave and work in the suburbs to build new offices and support the infrastructure. What is left in the city are dominantly lower paying service sector jobs and even those are not in high demand as they once were. Crime starts to increases, realestate values drop, cities tax base drops, cities start to operated in the red making it more difficult to maintain roads, infrastructure, pay cops and firefighters. I am not saying this will happen to Toronto but they may see smaller version of this - the wealthy leave because they can and the people that remain stay because they cannot afford to leave. In a city you can have the wealthy living beside the middle class that is not far from a struggling neighbourhood. In the burbs that does not exist - there are affluent areas and there are ghetto's.

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Originally Posted by Badenoch

I've worked from home and serviced remote clients in Canada and around the world for the last 20 years so the circumstances caused by COVID are nothing new to me. I've been doing video calls for years.

Remote working works if there is a pre-established relationship with the employer and among colleagues. The challenge becomes bringing in someone no one has met face to face. A lot of what makes a team successful are the interactions outside of the formal setting and I know my relationships with international teams were far better after a site visit.

What COVID has done is show that going into big office towers was as much habit as anything else and that companies can thrive without having large segments of the workforce under the same roof. When the storm subsides there will be more people working off-site but a wise executive would have his subordinates meet in person on a regular basis. So while people will be working from home, a far-away home wouldn't work.

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I agree 100%

I have worked remotely the last 10 years - with GE and the company I am with now. I cover Canada so it does not matter where I live. I make it a point to meet with the agents quarterly and pre-COVID I was in the Chicago head office 8-10 times a year. Meeting the person face to face makes a WORLD of difference when building a relationship.

Had coffee with a fella this morning and the topic came up. He has two sons that work in th GTA. Both have been working from home for the past year. The eldest has had all the staff below him laid off and the company decided that operations will continue with 'work from home' offices' from now on.

They leased a conference office type facility, a building has multiple tenants who can rent by the day or week or month etc. There are big rooms for meetings and the office come with all the electronics etc and there is a central reception and security area shared used by all tenants.

Saves a HUGE mount of overhead for operations with having the 'at home' staff come in and to the face to face stuff on a need be basis.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Had coffee with a fella this morning and the topic came up. He has two sons that work in th GTA. Both have been working from home for the past year. The eldest has had all the staff below him laid off and the company decided that operations will continue with 'work from home' offices' from now on.

They leased a conference office type facility, a building has multiple tenants who can rent by the day or week or month etc. There are big rooms for meetings and the office come with all the electronics etc and there is a central reception and security area shared used by all tenants.

Saves a HUGE mount of overhead for operations with having the 'at home' staff come in and to the face to face stuff on a need be basis.

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This is the look of the future for companies that have a little vision.

Five years ago several large companies, one of which I did consulting work for, were looking to develop a Canadian advocacy organization for their sector and I proposed a virtual concept using a similar model. The plan called for quarterly meetings held in different locations across Canada but would otherwise be a comparatively inexpensive virtual organization.

The companies were too tied to their own big office towers and considered the concept too low brow. The organization never got off the ground due to cost. Maybe I need to dust the plan off and pitch it again. ;)

and then theres me who got out of college end of 2020, havent been able to find a job other than my uncles place for a couple months. unemployed no income at the moment. job searches are honestly getting useless as you put in a application either instantly send you a email back saying rejected or never get a call back.

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Originally Posted by Bowjob

and then theres me who got out of college end of 2020, havent been able to find a job other than my uncles place for a couple months. unemployed no income at the moment. job searches are honestly getting useless as you put in a application either instantly send you a email back saying rejected or never get a call back.

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That will be a big problem for your generation. A lot of good people were laid off with a whack of skills and experience are in the same job market as you are. It's going to take years to try and get the economy going again and get everyone back to work.

I hope it works out for you, it's gotta be tough ..

One of my sons works for a major communication's company and has been working from home for many years - once in a while he has to go for special meeting at one of their facilities but all in all things have gone great for him and his company - one of son-in-laws works for the Corp of Engineering and is currently working from home due to the virus - he loves it because he saves a lot of time and money not needing to commute to work each day - I think after this virus thing is over more people will start working from home because of what was learned during the pandemic - I always thought that eventually schools and all the busing involved could be done away with and a big savings for tax payers would result but it seems the kids aren't doing so well with home studies - the young kids seem to need a lot of social contact which doesn't happen with home studies - this pandemic has shown that you don't need to visit the doctor in person many times since you can visit with him on FaceTime or Zoom - I talk to my kids each day using these face to face methods of communication - it's great -

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Originally Posted by JoePa

One of my sons works for a major communication's company and has been working from home for many years - once in a while he has to go for special meeting at one of their facilities but all in all things have gone great for him and his company - one of son-in-laws works for the Corp of Engineering and is currently working from home due to the virus - he loves it because he saves a lot of time and money not needing to commute to work each day - I think after this virus thing is over more people will start working from home because of what was learned during the pandemic - I always thought that eventually schools and all the busing involved could be done away with and a big savings for tax payers would result but it seems the kids aren't doing so well with home studies - the young kids seem to need a lot of social contact which doesn't happen with home studies - this pandemic has shown that you don't need to visit the doctor in person many times since you can visit with him on FaceTime or Zoom - I talk to my kids each day using these face to face methods of communication - it's great -

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Humans, when we have to, adapt well.

41000
“White flight”, or Gentrification. Same thing. Some will argue it’s a good thing, some not.

That is definitely starting to occur. Myself, given preexisting issues. I expect it to be a whole lot of bad, with just limited good. At its simplest most people befitting are either blind to the downsides, or don’t care.
Me me me, and that is a long established trait of the GTA and it’s denizens.

Why should companies big or small, continue to pay people GTA salaries when those same employees are savings thousands, not taking the Go train, buying lunches, and don’t need wardrobes full of business attire....my aren’t we entitled :)

And let’s not forget that the less money people make, the less there is to spend (gdp) and the less for taxes.

And the reality is, there are people all over Canada and the world capable, of doing the same job, for far less.

GTA med duo 80k
PTBO med duo 57k
GTA single avg 97k

My company was progressive. I was a “book runner”, trader. And able to work from since y2k and our company took disaster recovery planning seriously. We also had plans, for people to work out of Montreal, New York in the event of a 9/11 type event.

What will the landscape look in 3-5 years? Very different, that much is sure. And, those “benefitting” today. Well sunny days don’t last forever. A lot of people just assume the status quo is granted.

In the Spring and their hiring right now , Lawn care companies are getting ready, companies like Tru-green pay pretty good. Sometimes you have to take alternative work until you find something and maybe you never find anything and go back to school. I studdied Forestry but ended up in Ottawa working for Tru-green for 7 years (Formally known as Chemlawn), I went back to school in 1999 while my wife was pregnant and studied computer programming.

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Originally Posted by Bowjob

and then theres me who got out of college end of 2020, havent been able to find a job other than my uncles place for a couple months. unemployed no income at the moment. job searches are honestly getting useless as you put in a application either instantly send you a email back saying rejected or never get a call back.

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The Post Office is on a hiring binge right now.

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

The Post Office is on a hiring binge right now.

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Remember when that was a primium job

Bowjob.....(glad that didn't auto correct on me...)....what field did you study....and where abouts are you located?

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Originally Posted by JBen

41000
“White flight”, or Gentrification. Same thing. Some will argue it’s a good thing, some not.

That is definitely starting to occur. Myself, given preexisting issues. I expect it to be a whole lot of bad, with just limited good. At its simplest most people befitting are either blind to the downsides, or don’t care.
Me me me, and that is a long established trait of the GTA and it’s denizens.

Why should companies big or small, continue to pay people GTA salaries when those same employees are savings thousands, not taking the Go train, buying lunches, and don’t need wardrobes full of business attire....my aren’t we entitled :)

And let’s not forget that the less money people make, the less there is to spend (gdp) and the less for taxes.

And the reality is, there are people all over Canada and the world capable, of doing the same job, for far less.

GTA med duo 80k
PTBO med duo 57k
GTA single avg 97k

My company was progressive. I was a “book runner”, trader. And able to work from since y2k and our company took disaster recovery planning seriously. We also had plans, for people to work out of Montreal, New York in the event of a 9/11 type event.

What will the landscape look in 3-5 years? Very different, that much is sure. And, those “benefitting” today. Well sunny days don’t last forever. A lot of people just assume the status quo is granted.

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Gentrification has the opposite of white flight.

White Flight is the migration of dominantly middle/upper middle class higher income earners from a cities urban area to suburban areas. Migration to the burbs.

Gentrification is dominantly an urban phenomenon that targets certain inner city neighbourhoods that are deemed 'trendy'. Then there is an influx of affluent people into this area driving home prices up, and bringing development by tearing down less desirable dwellings and building condo's eventually displacing residents of the area that can no longer afford to life there.

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Originally Posted by 3030

Remember when that was a primium job

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Until "Going Postal" became a thing :)

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Originally Posted by LiveBates

Bowjob.....(glad that didn't auto correct on me...)....what field did you study....and where abouts are you located?

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ah crap i dont browse the off topic to much ahha i had a feeling i was gunnna forget i posted that

, i studied video game design and animation, although im not to sure i know what i wanna do still LOL

ive been applying to like home depot and stuff recently but i guess im just late on the application process maybe? located in Vaughan, another factor is im not driving currently which is a major MINUS in the whole job search which i accept.

in the process of getting that sorted out as well tho.

not being able to drive in this world is impossible sadly lol.

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

In the Spring and their hiring right now , Lawn care companies are getting ready, companies like Tru-green pay pretty good. Sometimes you have to take alternative work until you find something and maybe you never find anything and go back to school. I studdied Forestry but ended up in Ottawa working for Tru-green for 7 years (Formally known as Chemlawn), I went back to school in 1999 while my wife was pregnant and studied computer programming.

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i was looking into natural resource courses actually, how was studying forestry?

Very few jobs, but that was partially because I ended up in Ottawa for personal reasons. I still do chainsaw work and have made thousands on the side.

After working a seasonal job for 7 years I went back to school and studied programming. Been doing this now for almost 21 years. You make way more money and get way more vacation. I'm currently doing a contract as a DBA. Personally I hate it but the money is great and now I work from home, in fact most jobs in IT are from home now. If I can keep this up for 3 - 5 years I'm done. Would have been sooner if my wife had not made let's just say some serious financial mistakes. Otherwise I could have retired easily 5 years ago.

People use to say do what you love, screw that do something you can be good at that can make you a crap load of money and use that money to do what you enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Bowjob

i was looking into natural resource courses actually, how was studying forestry?

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

Very few jobs, but that was partially because I ended up in Ottawa for personal reasons. I still do chainsaw work and have made thousands on the side.

After working a seasonal job for 7 years I went back to school and studied programming. Been doing this now for almost 21 years. You make way more money and get way more vacation. I'm currently doing a contract as a DBA. Personally I hate it but the money is great and now I work from home, in fact most jobs in IT are from home now. If I can keep this up for 3 - 5 years I'm done. Would have been sooner if my wife had not made let's just say some serious financial mistakes. Otherwise I could have retired easily 5 years ago.

People use to say do what you love, screw that do something you can be good at that can make you a crap load of money and use that money to do what you enjoy.

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huh thats actually interesting, i studied a little programming in the videogame side of things, did some basic website stuff too, i enjoyed the art side of things more though and couldnt get into
the programming for some odd reason

I find IT a headache but when I see my pay check I'm happy.

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Originally Posted by Bowjob

huh thats actually interesting, i studied a little programming in the videogame side of things, did some basic website stuff too, i enjoyed the art side of things more though and couldnt get into
the programming for some odd reason

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I have worked myself up high enough that 30% of my day is meetings where I just listen and make my suggestions, 50% waiting on others so I can do a 5 minute job and 20% doing actual work.

Occasionally when they really screw up I am paid to just think of a way to fix their problem I lay down on my couch for that.

I have never delivered late always on time.

3 - 5 years left (cross fingers)

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Originally Posted by Bowjob

huh thats actually interesting, i studied a little programming in the videogame side of things, did some basic website stuff too, i enjoyed the art side of things more though and couldnt get into
the programming for some odd reason

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Originally Posted by Bowjob

ah crap i dont browse the off topic to much ahha i had a feeling i was gunnna forget i posted that

, i studied video game design and animation, although im not to sure i know what i wanna do still LOL

ive been applying to like home depot and stuff recently but i guess im just late on the application process maybe? located in Vaughan, another factor is im not driving currently which is a major MINUS in the whole job search which i accept.

in the process of getting that sorted out as well tho.

not being able to drive in this world is impossible sadly lol.

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Haha, I do that often....and forget to check back. Unfortunately without a vehicle, I don't have any suggestions. But, keep on looking local, and I hope something comes up bud. Wish you the best of luck..

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Originally Posted by LiveBates

Haha, I do that often....and forget to check back. Unfortunately without a vehicle, I don't have any suggestions. But, keep on looking local, and I hope something comes up bud. Wish you the best of luck..

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appreciate that

I don't really see working from home as a big threat to them shopping your job out to cheaper employees. Certainly depends on the job, but after having hired and terminated hundreds of people over the past 20 years, I can say finding good employees is very difficult and I always did all I could to hold onto the good ones. I was as flexible as I could be with peoples schedule, and as long as they got their jobs done I was never bothered when or where they worked from. Again, only some jobs can have that flexibility.

I've worked from home many times over my career and I always found I was more productive at home. A lot less distractions from the workplace. When there were major time crunches on some projects, I'd go home so I could actually get it done.

As an employer, if I had an employee who took pride in their job, was part of the solution not part of the problem. I'd do all I could to keep them including paying a premium. On the other hand the people who seemed like I owed them a paycheck, who always complained, had that mentality that they are underpaid, the company is just making money off their backs, and they know how things should be run when in reality they only know 10% of what it takes to run a business, etc.......Well lets just say I was less flexible and encouraged them to move on to a job they thought they were worthy of.

Getting your foot in the door can be hard, but once you do, value what you have been offered and do a good job. Look in the mirror the odd time and ask yourself if everyone else at your workplace are really as stupid as you think, or if perhaps you might be the problem. If you offer value to your employer, you will be treated fairly and compensated fairly. (sure there are some exceptions and its harder in big corporations to get noticed, but in general).

Be a constant PIA and don't be surprised when they find a way to get rid of you.

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Originally Posted by FishHog

I don't really see working from home as a big threat to them shopping your job out to cheaper employees. Certainly depends on the job, but after having hired and terminated hundreds of people over the past 20 years, I can say finding good employees is very difficult and I always did all I could to hold onto the good ones. I was as flexible as I could be with peoples schedule, and as long as they got their jobs done I was never bothered when or where they worked from. Again, only some jobs can have that flexibility.

I've worked from home many times over my career and I always found I was more productive at home. A lot less distractions from the workplace. When there were major time crunches on some projects, I'd go home so I could actually get it done.

As an employer, if I had an employee who took pride in their job, was part of the solution not part of the problem. I'd do all I could to keep them including paying a premium. On the other hand the people who seemed like I owed them a paycheck, who always complained, had that mentality that they are underpaid, the company is just making money off their backs, and they know how things should be run when in reality they only know 10% of what it takes to run a business, etc.......Well lets just say I was less flexible and encouraged them to move on to a job they thought they were worthy of.

Getting your foot in the door can be hard, but once you do, value what you have been offered and do a good job. Look in the mirror the odd time and ask yourself if everyone else at your workplace are really as stupid as you think, or if perhaps you might be the problem. If you offer value to your employer, you will be treated fairly and compensated fairly. (sure there are some exceptions and its harder in big corporations to get noticed, but in general).

Be a constant PIA and don't be surprised when they find a way to get rid of you.

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Great advice! I wish all employers were as in tune with the workforce as you are. I'm sure it comes with experience and by being observant. You sound like the kind of guy I'd want to work for.

For sure! Recognize effort and dedication, and everything else will fall into place. Good and bad employees in every field, like life.

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Originally Posted by Bowjob

appreciate that

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Have you ever thought of a trade? Your possibilities are endless - you can travel across the country for work, generate extra cash doing side jobs, get into sales (selling the equipment that you install), service sales and retrofit opportunities. There is ALWAYS a requirement for an Electrician, HVAC, or Plumber.