Ask a C/O, spring time training

Last year some emails were submitted to the ask a CO about running pointing dogs in the spring and the answer is cut and dry.......it is considered hunting and therefore illegal unless one apples for and receives a permit from the MNRF, they basically only give permits to those running field trials. Would love to know if anyone has received a permit other than for a field trial? I assume lots of guys on the forum have these permits considering there are threads about this subject including pictures of how messy it can be in the spring. I’ll include the email correspondence I received in this thread.

I always thought it was illegal, I’m surprised that they even allow permits for such training. I thought that was the whole purpose of a game farm, for training and enjoyment, etc. I find it irresponsible to continue such an activity in the name of training. It just isn’t fair to a migratory bird or any other game bird. I think it adds unneeded stress to the birds well being. Just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Birdbuff

I always thought it was illegal, I’m surprised that they even allow permits for such training. I thought that was the whole purpose of a game farm, for training and enjoyment, etc. I find it irresponsible to continue such an activity in the name of training. It just isn’t fair to a migratory bird or any other game bird. I think it adds unneeded stress to the birds well being. Just my opinion.

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That’s just my point...they don’t give the permits out... only for dog trails. All your points are valid and the exact reason it IS ILLEGAL to pursue game birds out of season without the proper permit!!! Birds flying back north after a long migration south and winter already have lower levels of body fat, fat that is very critical for the females who then lay eggs and sit on nest receiving very little nutrients during the process. Add being harassed on the way back north can deplete already low levels and can easily spell disaster for that bird let alone her young that year. Guys on here complaining about low numbers of birds which in turn will eventually dwindle hunter numbers. It’s not rocket science.........just science!!!

Duckslayer pretty much slam dunked this.

Don’t worry, any minute now you will be told why you are wrong....

Well, that escalated quickly...

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Originally Posted by duckslayer

Last year some emails were submitted to the ask a CO about running pointing dogs in the spring and the answer is cut and dry.......it is considered hunting and therefore illegal unless one apples for and receives a permit from the MNRF, they basically only give permits to those running field trials. Would love to know if anyone has received a permit other than for a field trial? I assume lots of guys on the forum have these permits considering there are threads about this subject including pictures of how messy it can be in the spring. I’ll include the email correspondence I received in this thread.

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I've posted the same comments in the past as well. My game officer contact at CWS has assured me that there are no permits issued for dog trials on woodcock or ruffed grouse. My main issue is the fact that we've lost almost 50% of the continental population of Woodcock since the sixties and the population continues to decline . Putting ANY additional stressors into the pot does not make any sense at all. Putting the fact that it's illegal to hunt these birds in the spring, I can't believe that anyone ethically thinks it's OK to do this given the status of the population. Another decade and you'll see these birds SARA listed . Probably "at concern" for another decade, then progressively dropping to endangered eventually. Glad I won't be here to see that day. Saying that you stop once the birds are on eggs is a weak argument. How many dog trainers are aware that woodcock are on the nest, right now incubating eggs ?(at least on my property in Fenelon Falls on April 2nd this year. Peak peenting and dancing has already passed at my place). How many are still running dogs on the birds this week?

So if I have this right from what I read here, we have a moderator in this forum who is in effect promoting an illegal activity and the Admins are OK with this? What next, FMM as a new mod? This forum has hit a new low from the looks of it. Pretty sad.

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Originally Posted by dilly

Duckslayer pretty much slam dunked this.

Don’t worry, any minute now you will be told why you are wrong....

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You'd think at this point a Mod would chime in with sage and responsible advice for the people who are considering harassing the birds out of season.... ahhhhh,, never mind.

The thing is the MNR has missed the mark on this as with most things they do. Instead of doing something sensible like they do in Michigan they just live up to the name Bantario. In Michigan training on wild birds is permitted year round except during nesting season usually around April 15th to July 7th. There are years the nesting starts a little earlier but for the most part by the time it is shutdown we aren't finding any birds on nests.

Some information in this thread is incorrect. The MNRF issues Train and Trial Permits. I have personally applied for years and received them, and never held a field trial. They are Train and Trial permits for the closed season.

I believe there is a benefit to permits, by applying for a permit the mnrf knows who I am, what I'm doing, where and when. This is due diligence for my part and the mnrf's.

I believe making scapegoats out of, or blaming hunting dog training for the decline of the woodcock population will not help the woodcock population in anyway.

Did you get a training permit from the MNR for woodcock or ruffed grouse?

Guys, if you don't like the modding on here you can always volunteer.
I'll also say that with our preponderance of game laws no one, including CO's has a handle on every aspect of scenarios or 'what if' scenarios they may encounter. People unknowingly can and do carry on with certain activities that may contravene those laws. It's what they do after finding out they're acting illegally that defines their character.

The only trial permits I've ever personally seen for "game birds" are for Ring-necked Pheasant (an introduced species in Ontario, but still considered a game bird under the FWCA). I've never seen one that allows hunting Ruffed Grouse during closed season. Please correct me if you've ever seen one for grouse. Woodcock are migratory birds under the MBCA, under federal (CWS) control. OMNR has nothing to do with migratory birds under the provincial act and would not be capable of issuing any permit for Woodcock. The Game Officers at CWS that I spoke to said there are no Woodcock permits.

We understand that this is a contentious issue, here is some information from the August 2020 issue you may find this useful to the discussion.

Click Ask a CO August 2020 for a larger image.
https://oodmag.com/wp-content/upload...20-reduced.pdf

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Originally Posted by AleshaOOD

We understand that this is a contentious issue, here is some information from the August 2020 issue you may find this useful to the discussion.

Click Ask a CO August 2020 for a larger image.
https://oodmag.com/wp-content/upload...20-reduced.pdf

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That was already posted by the OP in the first post of this thread and from what I can figure it comes down to whether using an already trained dog strictly for the purpose of photography could be interpreted as hunting.

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Originally Posted by swampsinger

I believe making scapegoats out of, or blaming hunting dog training for the decline of the woodcock population will not help the woodcock population in anyway.

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I'm afraid you are right. Habitat loss is the biggest concern and I'll be witnessing it first hand. The property I've been doing most of my woodcock and grouse hunting on has recently been purchased by Simcoe county. I've watch this property slowly turn from a active family farm 40 years ago to essentially an abandoned farm stead. Over time nature reclaimed alot of the field creating the ideal edge habitat for woodcock with still open areas for their spring dance. It has always been a spot where I could find 5-6 broods in the fall. With the purchase though things will be changing. Spoke to the forestry manager last fall on site and asked what the plan was as I'd hope they would continue to let nature thrive. However his response was heart breaking. Fields will be plowed back to the mature forest edge, planted in soybean this year in preparation planting red and white pine plantation. Asked him why destroy such important upland habitat in favour of pine plantation his response people want to see trees.
So ya all this rhetoric will drive those that are truly passionate about this bird further underground making an already obscure bird more invisible leaving none to say forget the trees we want to see more birds.

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Originally Posted by Fenelon

I..................................How many dog trainers are aware that woodcock are on the nest, right now incubating eggs ?(at least on my property in Fenelon Falls on April 2nd this year. Peak peenting and dancing has already passed at my place). How many are still running dogs on the birds this week?

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In the same vein, rabbits breed in February , but hunting is still permitted, and we wonder why we see fewer and fewer rabbits. Certainly as global warming has shown to muck with the length of seasons too, MNR has to make changes.

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Originally Posted by smitty55

from what I can figure it comes down to whether using an already trained dog strictly for the purpose of photography could be interpreted as hunting.

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Finally someone who has asked the right question.
If a woodcock hasn't been flushed has it been "hunted"
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...95b6c49a_z.jpg[url=https://flic.kr/p/2kPqtRt]

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Finally someone who has asked the right question.
If a woodcock hasn't been flushed has it been "hunted"

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So, it doesn't even register with you that you're on the wrong side of the issue in this discussion?
Hence my original question about the appropriateness of the original thread on this Forum.

As someone who enjoys hunting and fishing, I am always "hunting" when out in the woods all year, whether looking for sheds, traffic patterns of deer in the spring, new habitat in a changing landscape, transition areas and such. Just about anything that might help raise my odds of future harvests is on the agenda. Is looking at satellite views of a new area hunting? Some would say yes.
The defining point would probably be does it impact a species, and by how much. Who decides the amount of disturbance if any should be allowed. If there is a zero tolerance policy then no person should be allowed into an area from snow melt until late summer to fully protect an at risk species. It is a slippery slope and there are going to be different opinions fueled by how it helps an individual fulfill his goals. There is no blanket correct answer and as long as it is legal to do can only be governed by your own moral compass.
John

Last time we did this was 2018. At that time I was told by MNRF I could apply for an authorization to train with chukar at any time of the year as there is no closed season for chukar.

I dont gte the debate around using live grouse or woodcock to train in the spring. Who in their right mind would think that is legal?

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Originally Posted by blasted_saber

Last time we did this was 2018. At that time I was told by MNRF I could apply for an authorization to train with chukar at any time of the year as there is no closed season for chukar.

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That seems odd back in 2014 regs changed to allow up to 10 chuckers to be released without any authorization needed. Don't know why the MNRF would tell you to apply for an application to train unless you were going to release more than 10?
https://www.ontario.ca/page/release-...g-private-land

From Section 1 of the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act:

“hunting” includes,
(a) lying in wait for, searching for, being on the trail of, pursuing, chasing or shooting at wildlife, whether or not the wildlife is killed, injured, captured or harassed, or
(b) capturing or harassing wildlife,
except that “hunting” does not include,
(c) trapping, or
(d) lying in wait for, searching for, being on the trail of or pursuing wildlife for a purpose other than attempting to kill, injure, capture or harass it, unless the wildlife is killed, injured, captured or harassed as a result,

During nesting season - most CO's would likely be comfortable laying a charge based on the "harassed" term in the definition of hunting. It would be quite easy to explain in court that birds nest in the spring, and that the potential harm to nesting species exists during this time of year. I would have no problem laying this charge and let the defendant try to explain otherwise. Spring training? Wait until later. Leave the birds alone.
*Also* Trying to prove your purpose was not to intend any harassment of wildlife would be a very very steep uphill climb in court and likely would be futile.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

That seems odd back in 2014 regs changed to allow up to 10 chuckers to be released without any authorization needed. Don't know why the MNRF would tell you to apply for an application to train unless you were going to release more than 10?
https://www.ontario.ca/page/release-...g-private-land

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Ya. Re-reading the email I think I misread it.