Printable View
It has been in the ground (same spot) for about 12 yrs... These last few weeks it has been losing its needles like crazy. Never had that happen before.
I don't see any bugs on the tree. What can I do if anything to save this tree. I think it is a dwarf blue spruce.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...40522bbe6b.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...54ac7543ff.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...60f98c0455.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...22a09594_o.jpg
Looks like someone has been peeing on your tree. :joker: Kind of looks like damage from salt spray. Interesting to hear what it is.
Gypsy moths? It could have been the caterpillars and they've already done the damage and moved on. Lots of them this year. Although they supposedly don't bother with spruce trees.
Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
I have not noticed any on the tree.... You would think I would be able to see some of them or their nests... I was looking at it a couple weeks ago and thought it looked a little off but really noticed it yesterday once a friend mentioned it to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
Check it really close for spider mites. They are hard to see, but usually you can see the needles stuck together where their webs are. I had a similar issue a couple years ago. I got some spray from a nursery.
When did you put the mulch around the tree ? Trees hate being deeper than they should be
Very good Need sheet pure white paper to see spider mitesQuote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
I think you were right......Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
I went back out after reading some of the comments this time with my glasses on and I think you are right. Looks like there are lots of them on it.
I see a lot of what looks like cluster of droppings. (at least I think they are droppings)... Is there anything I can do or is this tree going to be done.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...c0a1ffa6ee.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...db012e151b.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...b126936f1e.jpg
It will come back but still have bare areas. I would leave itQuote:
Originally Posted by fratri
Fratri-sorry for Your tree.
I think Your best bet would be if You would go to a reputable local Nursery person ,and ask his review ON SITE.
He will give You remedy recommendation also(if available).
Absolutely NO OFFENCE to all helping memebers, but on site personal review by a knowledegable person will be the best help.
I think time is of essence for Your tree.
The SOONER ,the better.
As far as moths go-wrap a tree trunk with a sheet of burlap.Remove the burlap and toss it in a bucket of soapy water 2-3 x a week.The burlap acts as safe heaven for caterpillars moving up/down the tree-they will remain in the burlap. You can also hand pick them from the burlap and toss them in soapy water.Lots of Google explanations for this trick............
Let us know.
Could be... I was going to mention, they don't have the big "tent style" nests like the tent caterpillars.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
Hopefully the tree is ok.
Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
Looks like Gypsy moth to me. Treatment is similar to that of spruce budworm. Spray with Bt (baccillus thuringiensis) to kill caterpillars. You can also spray and kill cateripllars with soap and water. Do this every other day if you have to. If you have other trees nearby, this includes your neighbor too, spray them as well. If this is your first year experiencing them and you take preventive measures right away the tree should survive. If you ignore the problem they will re-occur next spring and that will finish off the trees permanently.
Unlike spruce budworm that prefers jackpine and spruce, gypsy moths usually go after broad leaved species first then attack coniferous species when all else is gone.
Would dawn dish soap and water combo workQuote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
Spray it with some Diazinon and prune out the dead branches. will be good as new by fall of 2022.
I don't think that is available in Canada, could be wrong but google says it is not available here. I will try the dawn soap and water thing tomorrow and see how that goesQuote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
When I had the spider mites, I asked the guy at the nursery about spraying with soapy water….he said all I would get was clean bugs !!!! LolQuote:
Originally Posted by fratri
You have to have a license now, but if you know someone involved in agriculture (Farming), Golf Courses, Orchards. We use to use in it in lawn lawn and tree care for aphids in trees and grubs in the turf, but it was banned for lawn care and non commercial uses..
I get it from friends if I need it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
What, :scream: I dont want to clean up those dirty buggers, I will look for something that will kill them maybe that BTK... :thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Dawn is good,but,Sunlight is better because it has a higher acidic content that insects absolutely detest. It works for caterpillars and ants and parasites that affect Red Maples,Norway Crimson King Maples with bark wounds. I had a new inetrlocking patio built last year. This year,the ants were all over it. Last Friday,I spray it with soapy water giving it a good soaking. Today,they aren't anywhere to be seen.
Certainly will, I was going through up to four gallons a day killing them on the foundation and on trees and on my shed. I have a blue spruce and another fir tree that they are attacking now that they've defoliated the oak and basswood on my property. If you can, get the Dawn Ultra 2x or 3x or the newest 4x that I bought today. You want a good blue tinge to the spray. Just be sure to rinse off the plants with water after or it will burn the leaves, not sure about needles on fir trees. The best way to prevent them from climbing trees is to wrap duct tape around the trunk and smear it with vaseline, they will not cross that barrier. In fact it will concentrate them under the duct tape so you can kill them all in one shot. I think I posted the pic on that other thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
Attachment 41929
If you call 311 they have teams coming out to take them out, not sure what exactly they'll do seen it on the news. Hope your tree comes back
Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk
The gypsy moth droppings I have seen were small black dots, about the size of poppy seeds. Might be bigger now as that was about 10 days ago, and as the caterpillar grows, so does their poop hole lol.
John
I wonder if you can order from Canadian Tire in Alberta.
This is banned in Ontario but Alberta or Saskatchewan, don't think it's banned in NB, NS or PEI either
https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/w...-0593757p.html
I have to ask. Do you always circumvent the rules? It is banned for a reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
It's not banned by Canada it is the Federal government that can really ban Chemicals
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
This is not a political thread. Take it up in a PM guys.
thank you
It’s a grey area lol. You know it’s illegal to spray sugar on soybeans. It’s a yield boaster but they could make you destroy the fieldQuote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
I don't see Politics being discussed I said what the law is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
Thanks by the way for posting this....I've never considered the Blue Spruce to be in danger of caterpillars. So I walked out to the front corner of the yard where I have a 1/2 dozen planted. Sure enough one in the far corner is being eaten. It's hard to see because they appear to work from the trunk out and haven't hit the outside edges yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
So bringing this to my attention may have saved the tree ...Thanks !!
I don't think that a home owner using a pesticide, that is banned by the Ontario government, for non-commercial use , is a gray area. How so? Can you be 'charged' for using it? What if everyone felt the same way, and used banned chemicals? Should not everyone who reads OOD, be concerned about the environment, and the use of banned pesticides? This is not a political question.Quote:
Originally Posted by js4fn
It's NOT banned...the sale of it to unlicensed customers is not allowed.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
Correct. Charges laid against homeowners are usually under municipal bylaws for business license violations.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
So no offence, for use by unlicensed purchasers?Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Check Pesticide Act….R.S.O…..Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
If I am correct in my perusal, yes it is an offence to use, unless you personally ,are licensed for pesticide use. One of my sons, has such a license ( different levels),after spending some time at ‘Turf University ‘ in Guelph. Greenskeeper Grade 2. That license makes a difference in the hierarchy ,and pay scale, in golf course management. Every Tom Dick and Harry should not get and spray.
Oh well turf guys use harsher herbicides and pesticides than farmers. WinkQuote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
As farmer with certification I can instructed you on mixing and precautions and send you off to do the job
Actually until 5 years ago I was licensed to use, buying is another license. I let mine expire and to regain them you ,must retake their course.
Actually at one time I had every license for NB, NS, PEI, Saskatchewan, and Alberta to use every pesticide know to Canada.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
Okay, so tried to go out and buy the BTK but everyone I checked were sold out.... So I went out there and sprayed about 3 gallons of water and Dawn 4 dish soap on the buggers.... Not sure if it is suppose to kill them, I guess we will find out tomorrow.... I am guessing over the next few days to spray it a few more times, hoping the soap water mixture works
You could try reverse tape around tree might catch them. Or if your a smoker or know one keep the butts soak in water spray liquid on tree
Vinegar is suppose to do wonders in the world just don’t know what harm it may do to tree
It will kill them in no time if the concentration is high enough. I would rinse with fresh water withing 5 minutes to lessen the chance of burning the needles.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
Vinegar and water mix is deadly on weeds. I don’t think I’d spray a tree with it !Quote:
Originally Posted by js4fn
I know but someone needs to take one for the team!Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Blue spruce is a beautiful tree especially when it has that blue look to it - down here they don't advice you to plant them anymore because of a needle cast disease that is killing them all - I have a number of them in my yard and all of them are dying - there is a spray that you could use but it has to be used a couple times and if the tree is big it ain't easy - the Douglas fir trees are getting hit by the same needle cast disease and they are all dying - hope this disease doesn't end up in your neck of the woods -
I went to have a look after work today, seems like a lot of them are still alive, maybe that water and soap mixture isnt strong enough to kill them, not sure.... Hoping it will come back to life one day.. Maybe I will spray it again tomorrowQuote:
Originally Posted by smitty55
For weeds It’s vinegar, epsom salt, dish soap. The acid and salt dry out the weeds. The soap acts as a binder. Doubt it will do anything to insects
There are places people go to grow weeds in the by, or veggies in the basement. They sell stuff to take care of varies insects from aphids, to spider mites etc. maybe it will help?
Found this.
https://www.erin.ca/living-here/home...rty/gypsy-moth
Yeah I just use 2-4-D whole lot easier and for areas around the barn I use RoundUP Weather Max. Round Up is also great for weeding around the flower gardens
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
My fiancé’s FiL was a landscaper, going to miss him. :( Very big name. Trimmer probably knows it.
He gave us a wee bit of the argeiculural grade, round up when we moved in, it was that overgrown/bad…
Have used vinegar/salt for years. It works. Not as well, but nowhere near as toxic :)
me, I have hate on for Emerald Ash. I’m in the process of taking down/out 12 large ash trees around our house and the neighbors. Good thing my neighbors son is an arborist with H1
You mix at a rate of 150 ml per 8 litres of water, same for the 2-4-D.
Frank if they are on that tree there should be others around you can test the spray on, it never takes very long at all. I have always use the Dawn ultra and when we had the tent caterpillar invasion here maybe 6 years back I figured out how much of a good blue tinge I needed to kill them very quickly. I also had tons of forest tent caterpillars here too, so there was also tons of masses on the trunks of maples around the property that I needed to put down hard and quick from a distance. I tried the ultra 4x for the first time today and I made it a bit milder it turned out as the blue colour was a bit lighter. It worked fine as I can tell real quick by the ones on the foundation. Although they have slowed down big time here, now the buggers finally found my red current bush, good thing I checked today. So I walked all around the 5ft bush spraying as I went and the ones I could spot all got a direct spray, often on the undersides as well. Then I fan sprayed the bush too. I already had the hose handy so I didn't wait very long before it got a real thorough wash and rinse. That's the bush where I initially learned my lesson many years back when it got hit by sawfly larva, those things are quick and nasty. Spray worked great, they would drop instantly, likely way too strong for those wee critters. Next day all the leaves that were left were kinda burnt and the berry crop was poor. I have tall ferns on the north and east end as foundation plantings and in many spots where they touch the foundation the tips are all burnt from me spraying above them many times a day at their peak. Then I spray the foundation down with the hose to clear all the dead ones off and knock any climbing up the siding and the rain gutters too. Then of course there's the shed and my three apple trees in particular that get a pile of hose time daily to physically knock the down.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
Good luck with it. Unfortunately conifers aren't prone to regrowing needles lost like deciduous trees can after defoliation. If it gets bad enough an option might be to do some pruning to encourage new growth. You should post some pics Cheers
I will try a little stronger dawn ratio (1/2 cup per gallon?) today and see if that can do the trick. Pruning might be an issue for me (no real talent at that) but will give it a try in the next few days/week.Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty55
When I worked as a tree sprayer we occasionally had customers ask if we could use insecticidal soap. I told them sure and the price is 3X the regular amount and I won't come back for a follow up visit.
The crap does not work very well.
Essentially what your trying to do is disrupt the permeability and structure of insects' cell membranes and it doesn't have a very good success rate.
Actually you can still buy this in Ontario, I guess because technically it's not for lawns.
https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/s...-1590819p.html
Mixed at double the rate to equal what I would use commercially.
Although it does not say it on the box it can also be used for Chinch bugs and grubs
It's used in smokers for Mosquito fogging...perfectly legal and is used by the city in parks etc and homeowners along hedge rows etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
When we get tent caterpillars I'll just mix up a 2 gallon hand sprayer with any dish soap I can steal from under the kitchen sink and go at'er. Just enough soap to color the water and with tent caterpillars, they drop immediately. They tend to yard up in the evenings in the crotch of branches of so you can kill them by the hundrends in one good soaking. Gypsy moth is a bit different as it seems you have to go out and hunt the little buggers down but it takes a good soak every morning and every evening to get ahead of them. I really wouldn't waste my money on chemicals to get rid of them.
Vinegar is actually more toxic when ingested directly than glyphosate (active chemical in roundup). LD 50 for vinegar is 3.3 gram per kilogram of body mass. LD 50 for glyphosate is 5.6 grams per kilogram of body mass.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
LD 50 being the dose that will kill 50% of a population after 96 hours. Safer to drink roundup than vinegar - at least in the short term.
Well go figure. My Oak and Basswood that were all completely defoliated all have new leaf growth happening, soon enough you won't even be able to tell they lost all their leaves. Even better, my Golden Delicious that was hit the hardest of my apple trees also has plenty of new leaves on it. Don't see anything on the Maples yet but they were hit after. So it seems there won't be any permanent damage to the deciduous trees. Conifers however are likely a different story. Frank, in your case with that Blue Spruce I would try pruning say 6" off the ends of those affected branches. It certainly won't hurt them and hopefully it would encourage new growth. Good luck
Attachment 41953
I think I will do that, my tree certainly looks better than before I started spraying with dawn dish soap. It looks like I killed lots of them if not all of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty55
I will trim back and see what happens. Thanks for all the advice.
Best time to trim a evergreen is late winter early spring
I loose 6-7 evergreens each year to buck scraps. Some just minor rubs Xmas tree size. Most when velvet is getting removed
New growth on this tree...... Looks like it is going to make it..... :)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...22a09594_o.jpg
This thread tweaked me to take a look at my Blue Spruce and yes one was hit. The damage is inside closer to the truck, I still have a solid blue fringe. Looks like it bouncing back as well...
WOW!! The government won't allow homeowners to use original formula Killex that even works on crab and quack grass,but,they allow the use of that stuff that's deadly to every living creature that eats insects that are sprayed with it. In the right concentration,that stuff can kill skunks that eat grubs from lawns that were sprayed with it. It's murder on pets and birds,too. It sure as he** isn't too good for humans,either. My BIL's best buddy was killed by using Paraquat and Malar on his apple orchard over the course of a year. People don't realize just how nasty some of that stuff is.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
Nah won't hurt you unless you swim in it. When I did Lawn and Tree care. I use to come home covered head to toe in Orthene, Sevin and diazinon. Occasionally when spraying lawns with 24D (Killex) once in a while a hose would blow and cover me. I love Roundup I but the commercial grade awesome for keeping weeds down around the yard. I don't pull weeds in the gardens I roundup. :)
Worked with so many chemicals I can't remember all the names anymore. But those ones I worked the most with don't remember the others for indoors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Paraquat is one of the most toxic out there. Roughly 20x worse than Malathion where humans are concerned.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
1 kg of pure paraquat is enough to render 100,000,000 litres of water unfit for human consumption.
There are a few other worse specimens but not many. Worst I can recall is Aldrin/Dieldrin roughly 15x more toxic than paraquat or 300x worse than Malathion.
Meh same as 24D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Species8472
2,4-D is actually worse than Malathion but not as bad as Paraquat.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
For reference I am talking chronic toxicity not acute and humans not the target species.
Dursban is really bad its a chlorpyrifos and builds up in your fatty tissue I think it was banned all together in 2001. Sprayed that a lot as well. Sevin is much safer you pretty much pee it out. Malathion, Sevin, and diazinon you pretty much pee it out, leaves your body easily.
Not sure about weed pesticides but insecticides and rodenticides are probably the worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Species8472
Any update on the tree status?
I have a number of Douglas fir and Blue spruce on my property - all are dying from some needle cast disease - it is recommended that we don't plant those trees anymore -
My mom had the same think happen .I pulled it out and the ground was covered in caterpillars. Millions of them.
It looks like it is recovering, we will find out in the spring for sure though... fingers crossed :)Quote:
Originally Posted by gbk
Nice........keep us posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
Updated pics, it is much better but not 100%
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...39ab9a54_c.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...5c1e4f45_c.jpg